5 ms·

I mean, from my perspective, they're literally prioritizing the things that I want my display manager to do well - Handle rendering things to screen - Handle

I mean, from my perspective, they're literally prioritizing the things that I want my display manager to do well - Handle rendering things to screen - Handle user input My issue is that while X has a LOT of other things it also happens to do, it just doesn't do those two primary things very well on modern hardware. As an aside - This reminds me of the systemd arguments all over again, but the same crowd that was ready to crucify systemd for all the things it does are now bemoaning all the things Wayland doesn't do. But really, I think there are just a lot of folks who aren't willing to try something new, or to re-evaluate some of the toolchains they've made for themselves. Now - I'm not going to blame them for that, having a working system change under you isn't fun, and it eats up time and resources some people don't have. But it also doesn't stop the new thing from replacing the old thing. Particularly if the new things happens to be genuinely better in many respects. And while I can certainly understand the pain point of missing features in Wayland, The way it gets user input and display output right are just delightful. So delightful that I actually prefer it to my work macbook, which is not something I could ever say about X.

oconnor663 6y ago
> the same crowd It might not be the same crowd. There are many crowds on Hacker News, and the voting mechanism tends to select for whichever crowd is angry at any given time. Which is, like, super frustrating. I want to feel like I have a relationship with the people I'm talking to, but I don't really. It's always different people, and they're not consistent with each other.
- horsawlarway 6y ago
  Entirely fair. I almost wrote out an aside in the above comment, because the person I was replying to certainly didn't mention systemd. I do think there are some interesting echoes between the two conversations, though. Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, and a lot more to do with the fear of having to learn something new to replace something familiar.
  - mindcrime 6y ago
    Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, What, you don't think people have legitimate criticisms of Systemd, or Wayland?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - horsawlarway 6y ago
      No, I think there are plenty of fair criticisms of both. Just like there are plenty of fair criticisms of init and X. But fair criticisms aren't really the comments I tend to see in these threads. Instead I see fear/resentment/anger expressed in the form of "How dare you choose to use X, when it doesn't solve my problem Z? Good ol' Y never lets me down on Z, you should just keep using that. And no, I don't care that you have problems A, B, and C with Y". Which... looking back at that sentence... I sure used a lot of letters, but I think it captures the point.
  - zeveb 6y ago
    It's not fear, it's resentment: the old ways worked, and often worked quite well, and everyone has mostly settled on reasonable ways to work around where the old ways were broken; the new ways quite simply don't work in ways that the old ones continue to work just fine, and we resent being forced to lose functionality we appreciate having. Systemd does offer some nice functionality, but in return it makes certain unreasonable demands (.ini files everywhere, binary logs, systemd-{resolved,homedir,consoled,all-the-things}. Wayland does offer some nice functionality, but it is not ready for prime time yet. It is nowhere near ready for prime time yet. It cannot replace X11, because it utterly fails to replace key X11 functionality today. Next year, or the year after, it might be different. It probably will be. I genuinely look forward to adopting Wayland when it upgrades X11. But I would utterly resent being forced to use it today, and I am very worried that I may soon be.
    - sergeykish 6y ago
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  You bring up a good point, it's something to think about. I try to address this with completely transparent and public voting, and also non-numerical voting, meaning every vote has to also be a "tag", like on Slashdot: insightful, interesting, troll, flamebait, offtopic, etc. But not only that, you also get to see who tagged you, and this tells you whether it's someone you know or just some random.
  - bartvk 6y ago
    What is interesting, is that you can tag people friends or foes. When you friend someone, suddenly you can see icons appear on other accounts: friends-of-friend (green/red pill), and foes-of-friend (green/green pill). I never got the impression that the tagging system is widely used, however.
pmontra 6y ago
I can work with a system running on systemd, upstart or old good init but I cannot work without screen sharing especially now that everybody is working remotely. I can probably survive with all the other missing features but not this one. I'll consider Wayland only when all the different softwares my customers and friends use will work on it as they do on X.
- SubiculumCode 6y ago
  But remote desktop just barely works on Linux. X forwarding is slow, VNC is buggy especially when certain applications packages expect hardware acceleration, and don't even get me started with all the issues with the keyboard mapping that can arise application to application. Meanwhile in Windows the remote application is close to flawless.
  - pmontra 6y ago
    Maybe Wayland is solving that, I really don't know. However I don't need them. What I need is screen sharing in Slack, Meet and TeamViewer and that works with X. I also occasionally need Skype, Webex, Zoom, Jitsi and Teams. They also work with X. I'm confident that any random system my customers throw at me will work with X if it's advertised to work on Linux. Not so much if I were running Wayland. If X would stop working this morning I'm afraid I'll have to go back to Windows, after 11 years, and use WSL2. Not a future I'm looking forward to and not something I'd thank the Wayland community for.
    - owowow 6y ago
      Screen Sharing works fine for browser based videoconferencing like Jitsi. Some apps like AnyDesk just haven't invested in support for Wayland, while shovelware like Zoom tries to force you to install their client.
      - account42 6y ago
        > Some apps like AnyDesk just haven't invested in support for Wayland That they have to invest work for simple functionality to work is the problem. Until Xwayland can support this, Wayland is broken by design.
josephcsible 6y ago
> This reminds me of the systemd arguments all over again I picked up on a completely different common theme: people are upset because major distros replaced a thing that worked with something else, and the new thing has a lot of problems that the old thing didn't.

oconnor663 6y ago

> the same crowd It might not be the same crowd. There are many crowds on Hacker News, and the voting mechanism tends to select for whichever crowd is angry at any given time. Which is, like, super frustrating. I want to feel like I have a relationship with the people I'm talking to, but I don't really. It's always different people, and they're not consistent with each other.

horsawlarway 6y ago
Entirely fair. I almost wrote out an aside in the above comment, because the person I was replying to certainly didn't mention systemd. I do think there are some interesting echoes between the two conversations, though. Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, and a lot more to do with the fear of having to learn something new to replace something familiar.
- mindcrime 6y ago
  Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, What, you don't think people have legitimate criticisms of Systemd, or Wayland?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - horsawlarway 6y ago
    No, I think there are plenty of fair criticisms of both. Just like there are plenty of fair criticisms of init and X. But fair criticisms aren't really the comments I tend to see in these threads. Instead I see fear/resentment/anger expressed in the form of "How dare you choose to use X, when it doesn't solve my problem Z? Good ol' Y never lets me down on Z, you should just keep using that. And no, I don't care that you have problems A, B, and C with Y". Which... looking back at that sentence... I sure used a lot of letters, but I think it captures the point.
- zeveb 6y ago
  It's not fear, it's resentment: the old ways worked, and often worked quite well, and everyone has mostly settled on reasonable ways to work around where the old ways were broken; the new ways quite simply don't work in ways that the old ones continue to work just fine, and we resent being forced to lose functionality we appreciate having. Systemd does offer some nice functionality, but in return it makes certain unreasonable demands (.ini files everywhere, binary logs, systemd-{resolved,homedir,consoled,all-the-things}. Wayland does offer some nice functionality, but it is not ready for prime time yet. It is nowhere near ready for prime time yet. It cannot replace X11, because it utterly fails to replace key X11 functionality today. Next year, or the year after, it might be different. It probably will be. I genuinely look forward to adopting Wayland when it upgrades X11. But I would utterly resent being forced to use it today, and I am very worried that I may soon be.
  - sergeykish 6y ago
forgotmypw17 6y ago
You bring up a good point, it's something to think about. I try to address this with completely transparent and public voting, and also non-numerical voting, meaning every vote has to also be a "tag", like on Slashdot: insightful, interesting, troll, flamebait, offtopic, etc. But not only that, you also get to see who tagged you, and this tells you whether it's someone you know or just some random.
- bartvk 6y ago
  What is interesting, is that you can tag people friends or foes. When you friend someone, suddenly you can see icons appear on other accounts: friends-of-friend (green/red pill), and foes-of-friend (green/green pill). I never got the impression that the tagging system is widely used, however.

pmontra 6y ago

I can work with a system running on systemd, upstart or old good init but I cannot work without screen sharing especially now that everybody is working remotely. I can probably survive with all the other missing features but not this one. I'll consider Wayland only when all the different softwares my customers and friends use will work on it as they do on X.

SubiculumCode 6y ago
But remote desktop just barely works on Linux. X forwarding is slow, VNC is buggy especially when certain applications packages expect hardware acceleration, and don't even get me started with all the issues with the keyboard mapping that can arise application to application. Meanwhile in Windows the remote application is close to flawless.
- pmontra 6y ago
  Maybe Wayland is solving that, I really don't know. However I don't need them. What I need is screen sharing in Slack, Meet and TeamViewer and that works with X. I also occasionally need Skype, Webex, Zoom, Jitsi and Teams. They also work with X. I'm confident that any random system my customers throw at me will work with X if it's advertised to work on Linux. Not so much if I were running Wayland. If X would stop working this morning I'm afraid I'll have to go back to Windows, after 11 years, and use WSL2. Not a future I'm looking forward to and not something I'd thank the Wayland community for.
  - owowow 6y ago
    Screen Sharing works fine for browser based videoconferencing like Jitsi. Some apps like AnyDesk just haven't invested in support for Wayland, while shovelware like Zoom tries to force you to install their client.
    - account42 6y ago
      > Some apps like AnyDesk just haven't invested in support for Wayland That they have to invest work for simple functionality to work is the problem. Until Xwayland can support this, Wayland is broken by design.

josephcsible 6y ago

> This reminds me of the systemd arguments all over again I picked up on a completely different common theme: people are upset because major distros replaced a thing that worked with something else, and the new thing has a lot of problems that the old thing didn't.