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Please tone down the rhetoric, I'm not blaming anybody. X is still included on those distros as a fallback option in case you have something that doesn't work.

Please tone down the rhetoric, I'm not blaming anybody. X is still included on those distros as a fallback option in case you have something that doesn't work. Re global hotkey bindings: Can you please describe your setup to me? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, global hotkeys were supported in all the Wayland implementations I tried recently. (KDE, GNOME, Sway, Wayfire)

CarelessExpert 6y ago
> Please tone down the rhetoric, I'm not blaming anybody. I understand that's not your intention, but that's effectively what you're doing. I'm a former developer who moved into product management a long time ago, and I've seen the syndrome. "I understand what you want, but we didn't build it that way, so you need to change your expectations" places the onus on the user to change their behaviour, instead of on the developer to build the thing the user actually wants. > X is still included on those distros as a fallback option in case you have something that doesn't work. The trouble is, a neophyte will a) have no idea what the difference is between Wayland and Xorg, and b) not realize that switching might fix whatever issue they're encountering. And BTW, this all presumes that a distro installs Xorg at all. If not, you've gotta dive into the package manager, which adds an additional barrier since you need to know what to look for and install. > Re global hotkey bindings: Can you please describe your setup to me? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, global hotkeys were supported in all the Wayland implementations I tried recently. (KDE, GNOME, Sway, Wayfire) It certainly doesn't. Two examples that immediately spring to mind: Guake, a handy pop-up terminal. In X I can press F12 anywhere and it opens. Super handy for quick terminal interactions, always-on commandline tools, etc. Gnome Do or equivalent. Basically Quicksilver for Linux. Fast search, command execution, etc, from the keyboard. Hit a hotkey and it pops up. Right now the way this works is that the compositor binds the key and then... does stuff. But that requires these applications to be redesigned to support that. For example, guake added a whole separate binary, 'guake-toggle', and it's only job is to toggle visibility. Unfortunately, that requires the user to know that they need to go into their compositor settings, bind the key, and set it to run that application. Meanwhile, on literally any other OS, this would be handled with a config setting right in the application. Maybe eventually be addressed with yet-another-dbus-protocol, but right now it's just a gaping functional regression.
- cycloptic 6y ago
  >I'm a former developer who moved into product management a long time ago, and I've seen the syndrome. I'll repeat: please tone it down, this is not the way to contribute to open source. I'm not a developer on any of these projects and you aren't my project manager. If you intend to try to step up to manage this as a work project then that's fine but this is not the place to do it. Save it for your own employees that you're hiring. Re user confusion: If you know enough to write scripts using xdotool you can probably figure out how to use a package manager and switch a machine over to X. Re global hotkeys: I still don't understand your complaint. You just described two applications that didn't work and then went on to explain how one of them was made to work on Wayland. Yes, applications need to be ported, no solution on the Wayland side will ever change that. If the complaint is that the chosen method adds latency, or that the config setting has moved, those are vastly different than your original complaint which is that it doesn't work.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    > I'll repeat: please tone it down, this is not the way to contribute to open source. I don’t have a dog in the Wayland-X fight, but I don’t see any excess or unproductive rhetoric in GP’s contributions here. They seem factual and specific with some background thrown in. When you twice asked for it to be toned down, I went looking to find offense and couldn’t. Contributing to open-source by stating concerns as a user of the system is a minor positive way to contribute. Writing docs for workarounds is a greater positive. Contributing code patches is a yet greater way, but those don’t take away from the fact the filing bugs (literally or conversationally) is still a positive action.
    - CarelessExpert 6y ago
      In their defense, my first comment in this subthread wasn't great. I'll own that. In the second one, the one phrase I probably could've phrased differently was "I've seen the syndrome". I could see reading that as a personal attack. I have good days and bad. This hasn't been one of my best. But I appreciate your being generous to my motivations.

CarelessExpert 6y ago

> Please tone down the rhetoric, I'm not blaming anybody. I understand that's not your intention, but that's effectively what you're doing. I'm a former developer who moved into product management a long time ago, and I've seen the syndrome. "I understand what you want, but we didn't build it that way, so you need to change your expectations" places the onus on the user to change their behaviour, instead of on the developer to build the thing the user actually wants. > X is still included on those distros as a fallback option in case you have something that doesn't work. The trouble is, a neophyte will a) have no idea what the difference is between Wayland and Xorg, and b) not realize that switching might fix whatever issue they're encountering. And BTW, this all presumes that a distro installs Xorg at all. If not, you've gotta dive into the package manager, which adds an additional barrier since you need to know what to look for and install. > Re global hotkey bindings: Can you please describe your setup to me? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, global hotkeys were supported in all the Wayland implementations I tried recently. (KDE, GNOME, Sway, Wayfire) It certainly doesn't. Two examples that immediately spring to mind: Guake, a handy pop-up terminal. In X I can press F12 anywhere and it opens. Super handy for quick terminal interactions, always-on commandline tools, etc. Gnome Do or equivalent. Basically Quicksilver for Linux. Fast search, command execution, etc, from the keyboard. Hit a hotkey and it pops up. Right now the way this works is that the compositor binds the key and then... does stuff. But that requires these applications to be redesigned to support that. For example, guake added a whole separate binary, 'guake-toggle', and it's only job is to toggle visibility. Unfortunately, that requires the user to know that they need to go into their compositor settings, bind the key, and set it to run that application. Meanwhile, on literally any other OS, this would be handled with a config setting right in the application. Maybe eventually be addressed with yet-another-dbus-protocol, but right now it's just a gaping functional regression.

cycloptic 6y ago
>I'm a former developer who moved into product management a long time ago, and I've seen the syndrome. I'll repeat: please tone it down, this is not the way to contribute to open source. I'm not a developer on any of these projects and you aren't my project manager. If you intend to try to step up to manage this as a work project then that's fine but this is not the place to do it. Save it for your own employees that you're hiring. Re user confusion: If you know enough to write scripts using xdotool you can probably figure out how to use a package manager and switch a machine over to X. Re global hotkeys: I still don't understand your complaint. You just described two applications that didn't work and then went on to explain how one of them was made to work on Wayland. Yes, applications need to be ported, no solution on the Wayland side will ever change that. If the complaint is that the chosen method adds latency, or that the config setting has moved, those are vastly different than your original complaint which is that it doesn't work.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sokoloff 6y ago
  > I'll repeat: please tone it down, this is not the way to contribute to open source. I don’t have a dog in the Wayland-X fight, but I don’t see any excess or unproductive rhetoric in GP’s contributions here. They seem factual and specific with some background thrown in. When you twice asked for it to be toned down, I went looking to find offense and couldn’t. Contributing to open-source by stating concerns as a user of the system is a minor positive way to contribute. Writing docs for workarounds is a greater positive. Contributing code patches is a yet greater way, but those don’t take away from the fact the filing bugs (literally or conversationally) is still a positive action.
  - CarelessExpert 6y ago
    In their defense, my first comment in this subthread wasn't great. I'll own that. In the second one, the one phrase I probably could've phrased differently was "I've seen the syndrome". I could see reading that as a personal attack. I have good days and bad. This hasn't been one of my best. But I appreciate your being generous to my motivations.