6 ms·

The trouble with your guake bug is it might be Gnome + Wayland specific. With the separation between the server and composer, bugs might need to be fixed in mul

The trouble with your guake bug is it might be Gnome + Wayland specific. With the separation between the server and composer, bugs might need to be fixed in multiple places. Some window managers use wlroots, so maybe some bugs can be fixed there, but others have their own forks and implementations. The hotkey thing is big and it's annoying because it's another thing that might need to be implemented/fixed in each and every composer and environment (and it could be different in every environment). I've seen the X11/Wayland talks and I agree Xorg has tons of old crufty garbage in it, and screen locking in Xorg is not very secure. But the Wayland team seems to have made little effort in addressing even the most basic things like hotkeys, screenshots, etc. I'm not sure if "user hateful" is the right term, but they don't seem to be prioritizing the most basic things people are asking for.

Spivak 6y ago
It's not that they're user-hateful it's just that they're (I think rightfully) being aggressive about scoping Wayland to things related to drawing surfaces and handling input events. If people started treating as one domain specific protocol that display servers use for drawing stuff on the screen and not "everything a desktop app might want to do" protocol there would be less conflict. I'm glad they're leaving all the "desktop" stuff out and letting desktops agree on dbus interfaces. I doubt people writing little CLI utilities want to have to create dummy Wayland surfaces to do interact with the display server which is how wl-clipboard works.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  So what does a Wayland-only future look like? Your clipboard, keyboard hotkey daemon, app runner, etc. all communicating happily over D-bus?
  - majewsky 6y ago
    Clipboard is handled by Wayland. Global hotkeys also needs to be handled by the Wayland compositor in some way since only the compositor has access to the full stream of input events. The compositor might choose to offload input events for known global hotkeys to some helper application, like kglobalacceld on Plasma.
- CountSessine 6y ago
  Exactly. What we’re really seeing here is technical debt from the fact that we have so many different desktop environments. Much of the cost of having Gnome and KDE was hidden by the fact that a lot of the job of putting pixels on the screen and handling keyboard and mouse events was done (very badly) by X in one way or another. Now the compositor/screen manager isn’t doing that anymore because it never should have and it was a terrible division or responsibility in the first place. But we have devs pushing forward on multiple different fronts with different DEs and development is painfully slow.
horsawlarway 6y ago
I mean, from my perspective, they're literally prioritizing the things that I want my display manager to do well - Handle rendering things to screen - Handle user input My issue is that while X has a LOT of other things it also happens to do, it just doesn't do those two primary things very well on modern hardware. As an aside - This reminds me of the systemd arguments all over again, but the same crowd that was ready to crucify systemd for all the things it does are now bemoaning all the things Wayland doesn't do. But really, I think there are just a lot of folks who aren't willing to try something new, or to re-evaluate some of the toolchains they've made for themselves. Now - I'm not going to blame them for that, having a working system change under you isn't fun, and it eats up time and resources some people don't have. But it also doesn't stop the new thing from replacing the old thing. Particularly if the new things happens to be genuinely better in many respects. And while I can certainly understand the pain point of missing features in Wayland, The way it gets user input and display output right are just delightful. So delightful that I actually prefer it to my work macbook, which is not something I could ever say about X.
- oconnor663 6y ago
  > the same crowd It might not be the same crowd. There are many crowds on Hacker News, and the voting mechanism tends to select for whichever crowd is angry at any given time. Which is, like, super frustrating. I want to feel like I have a relationship with the people I'm talking to, but I don't really. It's always different people, and they're not consistent with each other.
  - horsawlarway 6y ago
    Entirely fair. I almost wrote out an aside in the above comment, because the person I was replying to certainly didn't mention systemd. I do think there are some interesting echoes between the two conversations, though. Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, and a lot more to do with the fear of having to learn something new to replace something familiar.
    - 6y ago
stuaxo 6y ago
A few years ago I had a bug like this under X + Noveau + GNOME, where Windows were reporting the wrong coordinates. It was fairly easy to find an example on stackoverflow that created a Window using Gtk, and reported it's position. Once something like that is on the bug report things tend to get fixed pretty quickly. Report the bug on the outer-most thing first, e.g. GNOME shell in this case.

Spivak 6y ago

It's not that they're user-hateful it's just that they're (I think rightfully) being aggressive about scoping Wayland to things related to drawing surfaces and handling input events. If people started treating as one domain specific protocol that display servers use for drawing stuff on the screen and not "everything a desktop app might want to do" protocol there would be less conflict. I'm glad they're leaving all the "desktop" stuff out and letting desktops agree on dbus interfaces. I doubt people writing little CLI utilities want to have to create dummy Wayland surfaces to do interact with the display server which is how wl-clipboard works.

nerdponx 6y ago
So what does a Wayland-only future look like? Your clipboard, keyboard hotkey daemon, app runner, etc. all communicating happily over D-bus?
- majewsky 6y ago
  Clipboard is handled by Wayland. Global hotkeys also needs to be handled by the Wayland compositor in some way since only the compositor has access to the full stream of input events. The compositor might choose to offload input events for known global hotkeys to some helper application, like kglobalacceld on Plasma.
CountSessine 6y ago
Exactly. What we’re really seeing here is technical debt from the fact that we have so many different desktop environments. Much of the cost of having Gnome and KDE was hidden by the fact that a lot of the job of putting pixels on the screen and handling keyboard and mouse events was done (very badly) by X in one way or another. Now the compositor/screen manager isn’t doing that anymore because it never should have and it was a terrible division or responsibility in the first place. But we have devs pushing forward on multiple different fronts with different DEs and development is painfully slow.

horsawlarway 6y ago

I mean, from my perspective, they're literally prioritizing the things that I want my display manager to do well - Handle rendering things to screen - Handle user input My issue is that while X has a LOT of other things it also happens to do, it just doesn't do those two primary things very well on modern hardware. As an aside - This reminds me of the systemd arguments all over again, but the same crowd that was ready to crucify systemd for all the things it does are now bemoaning all the things Wayland doesn't do. But really, I think there are just a lot of folks who aren't willing to try something new, or to re-evaluate some of the toolchains they've made for themselves. Now - I'm not going to blame them for that, having a working system change under you isn't fun, and it eats up time and resources some people don't have. But it also doesn't stop the new thing from replacing the old thing. Particularly if the new things happens to be genuinely better in many respects. And while I can certainly understand the pain point of missing features in Wayland, The way it gets user input and display output right are just delightful. So delightful that I actually prefer it to my work macbook, which is not something I could ever say about X.

oconnor663 6y ago
> the same crowd It might not be the same crowd. There are many crowds on Hacker News, and the voting mechanism tends to select for whichever crowd is angry at any given time. Which is, like, super frustrating. I want to feel like I have a relationship with the people I'm talking to, but I don't really. It's always different people, and they're not consistent with each other.
- horsawlarway 6y ago
  Entirely fair. I almost wrote out an aside in the above comment, because the person I was replying to certainly didn't mention systemd. I do think there are some interesting echoes between the two conversations, though. Namely that the "angry" that happens to be getting selected for has nothing to do with the merits of either piece of software, and a lot more to do with the fear of having to learn something new to replace something familiar.
  - 6y ago

stuaxo 6y ago

A few years ago I had a bug like this under X + Noveau + GNOME, where Windows were reporting the wrong coordinates. It was fairly easy to find an example on stackoverflow that created a Window using Gtk, and reported it's position. Once something like that is on the bug report things tend to get fixed pretty quickly. Report the bug on the outer-most thing first, e.g. GNOME shell in this case.