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Nobody is forcing you to use Wayland. Nobody is arguing that X.org's server will disappear from the face of the earth.

jolmg 6y ago
> Nobody is arguing that X.org's server will disappear from the face of the earth. Actually, that's exactly one of the major reasons put forth for switching to Wayland. The very comment you replied to quotes it: >>> a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore If the project ends up truly unmaintained, it really would end up disappearing from the face of the earth as the platform under it (the hardware, the kernel, etc.) changes to the point that it becomes non-functional.
- horsawlarway 6y ago
  I'm sorry, this sounds like some strange mix of entitlement and unwillingness to explore new solutions. You don't want people to use a new thing because it might siphon off resource you're benefitting from now? If you love X, go work on it, or pay people to. Otherwise... what possible point are you trying to make?
  - jolmg 6y ago
    > ... entitlement and unwillingness ... You don't want ... Did I express any want in my comment? I didn't even say anything about my preferences. I wonder if perhaps you replied to the wrong comment? > what possible point are you trying to make? To correct emersion about Wayland being an option. Do you think what I said was incorrect?
- Joeri 6y ago
  X disappearing from the face of the earth would be a great thing for wayland, because people would be forced to fix the remaining issues. I’ve seen this happen multiple times with replacement systems: as long as people can escape back to the old system the new one remains rough around the edges, but once the old one is turned off the new system rapidly improves to production level quality.
  - jolmg 6y ago
    > people would be forced to fix the remaining issues. The problem is that they can't be fixed, as I understand. People are asking for things that some see as features and others see as bugs. The only way to keep everyone happy is for both to continue co-existing, but unless something changes, it doesn't seem like that's going to happen.
    - sjy 6y ago
      The issues can’t be ‘fixed’ in the Wayland protocol, but have been addressed by individual compositors and libraries like wlroots. The difficulty is not in building a decent Wayland desktop from scratch (GNOME, Sway and ChromeOS have all done this), but in rewriting X11 window managers, screen sharing apps and automation tools that perform functions that are the compositor’s responsibility under Wayland.
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    Why would they be forced to fix the remaining issues instead of telling users they don't really need the features that they have deprecated?
- emersion 6y ago
  >as the platform under it (the hardware, the kernel, etc.) changes to the point that it becomes non-functional. The kernel has a pretty strong backwards-compatibility stance, so you'd need to wait a long time. Nobody stops you from running an outdated and insecure distribution to use X11 (in this hypothetical future). Nobody stops you from patching X11 to support newer interfaces. If you want to stick with X11, you can. Nobody urges you to upgrade.
bitwize 6y ago
That's precisely what people are arguing. That's precisely what Kristian Høgsberg wanted from the get-go: for X to simply go away, except as a compatibility layer for "legacy applications". (And I bet Xwayland will eventually be deprecated and unsupported, except for Red Hat's government clients or something.) X has been quasi-officially deprecated for years now, with Wayland offered as its replacement.
- ajaxnwnk 6y ago
  > (And I bet Xwayland will eventually be deprecated and unsupported, except for Red Hat's government clients or something.) No, sorry. X11 clients are eternal, there's just way too many of them out there that are line-of-business and will never be ported to anything else. So I'm always going to need some solution to make those apps work, and since for the foreseeable future that probably means "run a nested X server that translates things to the native display server's API", that means Xwayland isn't going away any time soon, and if/when it does it'll be replaced by some other translation layer I'll need to support.

> Nobody is arguing that X.org's server will disappear from the face of the earth. Actually, that's exactly one of the major reasons put forth for switching to Wayland. The very comment you replied to quotes it: >>> a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore If the project ends up truly unmaintained, it really would end up disappearing from the face of the earth as the platform under it (the hardware, the kernel, etc.) changes to the point that it becomes non-functional.

horsawlarway 6y ago
I'm sorry, this sounds like some strange mix of entitlement and unwillingness to explore new solutions. You don't want people to use a new thing because it might siphon off resource you're benefitting from now? If you love X, go work on it, or pay people to. Otherwise... what possible point are you trying to make?
- jolmg 6y ago
  > ... entitlement and unwillingness ... You don't want ... Did I express any want in my comment? I didn't even say anything about my preferences. I wonder if perhaps you replied to the wrong comment? > what possible point are you trying to make? To correct emersion about Wayland being an option. Do you think what I said was incorrect?
Joeri 6y ago
X disappearing from the face of the earth would be a great thing for wayland, because people would be forced to fix the remaining issues. I’ve seen this happen multiple times with replacement systems: as long as people can escape back to the old system the new one remains rough around the edges, but once the old one is turned off the new system rapidly improves to production level quality.
- jolmg 6y ago
  > people would be forced to fix the remaining issues. The problem is that they can't be fixed, as I understand. People are asking for things that some see as features and others see as bugs. The only way to keep everyone happy is for both to continue co-existing, but unless something changes, it doesn't seem like that's going to happen.
  - sjy 6y ago
    The issues can’t be ‘fixed’ in the Wayland protocol, but have been addressed by individual compositors and libraries like wlroots. The difficulty is not in building a decent Wayland desktop from scratch (GNOME, Sway and ChromeOS have all done this), but in rewriting X11 window managers, screen sharing apps and automation tools that perform functions that are the compositor’s responsibility under Wayland.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  Why would they be forced to fix the remaining issues instead of telling users they don't really need the features that they have deprecated?
emersion 6y ago
>as the platform under it (the hardware, the kernel, etc.) changes to the point that it becomes non-functional. The kernel has a pretty strong backwards-compatibility stance, so you'd need to wait a long time. Nobody stops you from running an outdated and insecure distribution to use X11 (in this hypothetical future). Nobody stops you from patching X11 to support newer interfaces. If you want to stick with X11, you can. Nobody urges you to upgrade.

bitwize 6y ago

That's precisely what people are arguing. That's precisely what Kristian Høgsberg wanted from the get-go: for X to simply go away, except as a compatibility layer for "legacy applications". (And I bet Xwayland will eventually be deprecated and unsupported, except for Red Hat's government clients or something.) X has been quasi-officially deprecated for years now, with Wayland offered as its replacement.

ajaxnwnk 6y ago
> (And I bet Xwayland will eventually be deprecated and unsupported, except for Red Hat's government clients or something.) No, sorry. X11 clients are eternal, there's just way too many of them out there that are line-of-business and will never be ported to anything else. So I'm always going to need some solution to make those apps work, and since for the foreseeable future that probably means "run a nested X server that translates things to the native display server's API", that means Xwayland isn't going away any time soon, and if/when it does it'll be replaced by some other translation layer I'll need to support.