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I find this comment deeply ironic. You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X

I find this comment deeply ironic. You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore. --- Here's my take on your position - I absolutely agree that if you have processes and tooling in place that you currently depend on, and can't replace, you should stick with X. That said - As a way to manage input and output on my system (MY system, with my preferences and my requirements) I've found Wayland to be a delightfully better experience than X. So to come back at your list of requirements, mine looks like - Multimonitor support, including mixed scaling ratios - Touchpad input with gestures, approximately in line with the experience on OSX - A sane "default" that does not constantly require that I manually edit settings or xconf files on EVERY system I touch - No screen tearing or flickering. Seriously - NO! --- The difference between the two lists, is that I believe Wayland can eventually replace the tools you need. I no longer have any faith that X will be able to solve my requirements. Wayland does.

CarelessExpert 6y ago
> You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore. I... think you already understand why this is a disingenuous argument, but I'll explain anyway: The difference is, for most folks, X works, right now, today, while its maintainership is in question. For example, of the four items you listed, none of them particularly matter to me. ydotool, as an example, doesn't work and it's not maintained. Does that make sense? > I believe Wayland can eventually replace the tools you need Alright, well, ten years from now we should revisit this conversation! Unfortunately, at this point, the Wayland ecosystem is looking a bit like Zeno's Paradox...
- horsawlarway 6y ago
  My opinion - today - is that X doesn't work on laptops where the user expects to use a touchpad. Nor does it work on a laptop with a resolution that requires scaling (at least not the second you plug in another display). It also takes a hell of a lot more configuration to reach that state. It's also not maintained. So no disrespect, but it really sounds like your argument has boiled down to "I won't acknowledge issues unless they personally impact me and my daily workflow". Now - I'm fine with that when you're making an argument for the machine you should use personally (hell, I agree with you, if X works and you like, rock on). But that's a pretty disingenuous take to make while discussing the merits of the platform with other folks.
  - CarelessExpert 6y ago
    > My opinion - today - is that X doesn't work on laptops where the user expects to use a touchpad. Nor does it work on a laptop with a resolution that requires scaling (at least not the second you plug in another display). None of those issues actually make X unusable. And I say that while writing this on an X1 Carbon running Debian testing using X in a multi-monitor setup (and yes, this is a totally plug-and-play setup with zero monkeying around in config files... a fact that, frankly, amazes me, having grown up hacking X modelines). Wayland, by contrast, is literally unusable (as in, it lacks fundamental features that make it something people can't use) in many circumstances due to either compositor bugs, features that don't work by design, or features that don't work due to a lack of solutions or a lack of adoption of those solutions. And I know this because I've tried to use it. I really like the possibilities it opens up. But it's so far from mature, at this point, that it simply cannot act as an X replacement for most people. Frankly, I'm a little shocked distros are making Wayland their default display server ecosystem, as it's an objective step backward for desktop Linux and I expect will scare a lot of neophytes away who wonder why the hell basic features like screensharing still don't yet work in their favourite application.
    - horsawlarway 6y ago
      Funny, I'm writing this on a Arch/Gnome/Wayland XPS machine, that I use as my daily driver. So clearly it's not "literally unusable". > Frankly, I'm a little shocked distros are making Wayland their default display server ecosystem They're making it the default because it work better for most people. You may not be most people, but I can at least concede that X is probably still the right choice for you. You seem to be unable to have a good faith conversation about the merits of Wayland.
      - CarelessExpert 6y ago
        > You seem to be unable to have a good faith conversation about the merits of Wayland. Actually, we haven't talked about the merits, yet! Unfortunately, when I was playing around with Wayland, I struggled a bit to find the benefits that would make it so irresistible that I'd put up with the downsides. Tear-free? Eh, I have that with X thanks to Intel's drivers. Though I absolutely understand that's not a universal experience. Different display DPIs? Anything that falls back to Xwayland (which unfortunately is still a lot of applications) look like blurry garbage for obvious reasons, which means it's actually unusable in a lot of circumstances. And that's assuming solid application-level support (I seem to recall Firefox had mixed DPI regressions that were recently resolved, but that's only a vague recollection). TBH, I was really really rooting for this feature as it could be really nice, and I was deeply disappointed when it didn't work out. Touchpad gestures? Okay, legit these are really nice! Three-finger workspace switching in Gnome is pretty slick. OTOH, the lack of that feature isn't a dealbreaker, either. General touchpad improvements? Funny thing is, libinput is being backported into Xorg, which means that you can get a lot of those benefits without switching. For example, I'm using Firefox with libinput2 and it's a fantastic improvement! Honestly, I'd love a killer feature that'd push me to Wayland and cause me to put up with all the functional regressions. But I simply haven't found one... :( So, at this point, I'm waiting for the regressions to be resolved. Hopefully we'll get global hotkeys, broadly supported screencasting, better application-level support for things like mixed DPI, and lots of bug fixes so I can finally make the switch!
pmoriarty 6y ago
"You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore." The difference is that a huge number of essential features both exist and actually work in X, but not in Wayland. That particular X developer might have abandoned X, but X itself is still here, still works, and still does what I need. Can't say the same about Wayland, yet...
- emersion 6y ago
  Nobody is forcing you to use Wayland. Nobody is arguing that X.org's server will disappear from the face of the earth.
  - jolmg 6y ago
    > Nobody is arguing that X.org's server will disappear from the face of the earth. Actually, that's exactly one of the major reasons put forth for switching to Wayland. The very comment you replied to quotes it: >>> a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore If the project ends up truly unmaintained, it really would end up disappearing from the face of the earth as the platform under it (the hardware, the kernel, etc.) changes to the point that it becomes non-functional.
    - horsawlarway 6y ago
      I'm sorry, this sounds like some strange mix of entitlement and unwillingness to explore new solutions. You don't want people to use a new thing because it might siphon off resource you're benefitting from now? If you love X, go work on it, or pay people to. Otherwise... what possible point are you trying to make?
      - jolmg 6y ago
        > ... entitlement and unwillingness ... You don't want ... Did I express any want in my comment? I didn't even say anything about my preferences. I wonder if perhaps you replied to the wrong comment? > what possible point are you trying to make? To correct emersion about Wayland being an option. Do you think what I said was incorrect?

CarelessExpert 6y ago

> You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore. I... think you already understand why this is a disingenuous argument, but I'll explain anyway: The difference is, for most folks, X works, right now, today, while its maintainership is in question. For example, of the four items you listed, none of them particularly matter to me. ydotool, as an example, doesn't work and it's not maintained. Does that make sense? > I believe Wayland can eventually replace the tools you need Alright, well, ten years from now we should revisit this conversation! Unfortunately, at this point, the Wayland ecosystem is looking a bit like Zeno's Paradox...

horsawlarway 6y ago
My opinion - today - is that X doesn't work on laptops where the user expects to use a touchpad. Nor does it work on a laptop with a resolution that requires scaling (at least not the second you plug in another display). It also takes a hell of a lot more configuration to reach that state. It's also not maintained. So no disrespect, but it really sounds like your argument has boiled down to "I won't acknowledge issues unless they personally impact me and my daily workflow". Now - I'm fine with that when you're making an argument for the machine you should use personally (hell, I agree with you, if X works and you like, rock on). But that's a pretty disingenuous take to make while discussing the merits of the platform with other folks.
- CarelessExpert 6y ago
  > My opinion - today - is that X doesn't work on laptops where the user expects to use a touchpad. Nor does it work on a laptop with a resolution that requires scaling (at least not the second you plug in another display). None of those issues actually make X unusable. And I say that while writing this on an X1 Carbon running Debian testing using X in a multi-monitor setup (and yes, this is a totally plug-and-play setup with zero monkeying around in config files... a fact that, frankly, amazes me, having grown up hacking X modelines). Wayland, by contrast, is literally unusable (as in, it lacks fundamental features that make it something people can't use) in many circumstances due to either compositor bugs, features that don't work by design, or features that don't work due to a lack of solutions or a lack of adoption of those solutions. And I know this because I've tried to use it. I really like the possibilities it opens up. But it's so far from mature, at this point, that it simply cannot act as an X replacement for most people. Frankly, I'm a little shocked distros are making Wayland their default display server ecosystem, as it's an objective step backward for desktop Linux and I expect will scare a lot of neophytes away who wonder why the hell basic features like screensharing still don't yet work in their favourite application.
  - horsawlarway 6y ago
    Funny, I'm writing this on a Arch/Gnome/Wayland XPS machine, that I use as my daily driver. So clearly it's not "literally unusable". > Frankly, I'm a little shocked distros are making Wayland their default display server ecosystem They're making it the default because it work better for most people. You may not be most people, but I can at least concede that X is probably still the right choice for you. You seem to be unable to have a good faith conversation about the merits of Wayland.
    - CarelessExpert 6y ago
      > You seem to be unable to have a good faith conversation about the merits of Wayland. Actually, we haven't talked about the merits, yet! Unfortunately, when I was playing around with Wayland, I struggled a bit to find the benefits that would make it so irresistible that I'd put up with the downsides. Tear-free? Eh, I have that with X thanks to Intel's drivers. Though I absolutely understand that's not a universal experience. Different display DPIs? Anything that falls back to Xwayland (which unfortunately is still a lot of applications) look like blurry garbage for obvious reasons, which means it's actually unusable in a lot of circumstances. And that's assuming solid application-level support (I seem to recall Firefox had mixed DPI regressions that were recently resolved, but that's only a vague recollection). TBH, I was really really rooting for this feature as it could be really nice, and I was deeply disappointed when it didn't work out. Touchpad gestures? Okay, legit these are really nice! Three-finger workspace switching in Gnome is pretty slick. OTOH, the lack of that feature isn't a dealbreaker, either. General touchpad improvements? Funny thing is, libinput is being backported into Xorg, which means that you can get a lot of those benefits without switching. For example, I'm using Firefox with libinput2 and it's a fantastic improvement! Honestly, I'd love a killer feature that'd push me to Wayland and cause me to put up with all the functional regressions. But I simply haven't found one... :( So, at this point, I'm waiting for the regressions to be resolved. Hopefully we'll get global hotkeys, broadly supported screencasting, better application-level support for things like mixed DPI, and lots of bug fixes so I can finally make the switch!

pmoriarty 6y ago

"You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore." The difference is that a huge number of essential features both exist and actually work in X, but not in Wayland. That particular X developer might have abandoned X, but X itself is still here, still works, and still does what I need. Can't say the same about Wayland, yet...

emersion 6y ago
Nobody is forcing you to use Wayland. Nobody is arguing that X.org's server will disappear from the face of the earth.
- jolmg 6y ago
  > Nobody is arguing that X.org's server will disappear from the face of the earth. Actually, that's exactly one of the major reasons put forth for switching to Wayland. The very comment you replied to quotes it: >>> a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore If the project ends up truly unmaintained, it really would end up disappearing from the face of the earth as the platform under it (the hardware, the kernel, etc.) changes to the point that it becomes non-functional.
  - horsawlarway 6y ago
    I'm sorry, this sounds like some strange mix of entitlement and unwillingness to explore new solutions. You don't want people to use a new thing because it might siphon off resource you're benefitting from now? If you love X, go work on it, or pay people to. Otherwise... what possible point are you trying to make?
    - jolmg 6y ago
      > ... entitlement and unwillingness ... You don't want ... Did I express any want in my comment? I didn't even say anything about my preferences. I wonder if perhaps you replied to the wrong comment? > what possible point are you trying to make? To correct emersion about Wayland being an option. Do you think what I said was incorrect?