10 ms·

I can find Wayland equivalents for my compositor for all of these tools: https://github.com/swaywm/sway/wiki/i3-Migration-Guide#common-x11-apps-used-on-i3-with

I can find Wayland equivalents for my compositor for all of these tools: https://github.com/swaywm/sway/wiki/i3-Migration-Guide#common-x11-apps-used-on-i3-with-wayland-alternatives https://github.com/swaywm/sway/wiki/i3-Migration-Guide#commo...

magicalhippo 6y ago
Ok so I've mainly used Windows, but I got a secondary machine with Linux, which for the last few years has been running KDE Neon which I rather enjoy. This whole "desktop stack" on Linux always makes my head hurt, so these might be really dumb questions: If I install some distro, Arch say, and I wanted to use Sway, and I then want to run Kile, will Kile then run through XWayland? Will it work just as well as Kile on KDE Neon? I understand KWin has some Wayland support but it also seems not quite ready for prime time the times I've tried it. So was curious about alternatives, just for curiosities sake.
- chungy 6y ago
  Kile most likely runs as a native Wayland application. Though for any legacy apps/games that use X, yeah they'll run in XWayland and should be seamless.
  - CarelessExpert 6y ago
    Right... seamless... https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1065 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1065
- emersion 6y ago
  >If I install some distro, Arch say, and I wanted to use Sway, and I then want to run Kile, will Kile then run through XWayland? Kile seems to use Qt5, so should work without Xwayland. > Will it work just as well as Kile on KDE Neon? It should, yes. I don't use Kile though, so I haven't checked.
- josefx 6y ago
  > Kile Since Kile is a KDE application it should run using Qts wayland backend. > Will it work just as well as Kile on KDE Neon? Depends, do you need anything more fancy than mouse and keyboard? No? Then great. Power user functionality like copy paste on the other hand? https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4007 https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4007 might want to pray before using that.
  - emersion 6y ago
    > Power user functionality like copy paste on the other hand? https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4007 https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4007 might want to pray before using that. Come on. Congratulations, you've found the only opened bug report about clipboard on Sway/wlroots. It's triggered by edge cases (X11 client hanging + fcitx apparently), and most of it has been fixed already. Are you really trying to convince people that the clipboard is broken on Wayland with this? Maybe you could start by actually trying Wayland.
pmoriarty 6y ago
Just to take a couple of examples from that list: ydotool is listed there as an equivalent of xdotool, but ydotool has only a tiny fraction of the features of xdotool. And it's unlikely that it'll get much better any time soon, as its README says: "Since Jun, 2019, I have little time to maintain this project" wtype is listed as another equivalent to xdotool, but it has even less features than ydotool. If the rest of the X equivalents on that list are as feature poor as these, I don't hold out much hope for Wayland in the near future.
- horsawlarway 6y ago
  I find this comment deeply ironic. You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore. --- Here's my take on your position - I absolutely agree that if you have processes and tooling in place that you currently depend on, and can't replace, you should stick with X. That said - As a way to manage input and output on my system (MY system, with my preferences and my requirements) I've found Wayland to be a delightfully better experience than X. So to come back at your list of requirements, mine looks like - Multimonitor support, including mixed scaling ratios - Touchpad input with gestures, approximately in line with the experience on OSX - A sane "default" that does not constantly require that I manually edit settings or xconf files on EVERY system I touch - No screen tearing or flickering. Seriously - NO! --- The difference between the two lists, is that I believe Wayland can eventually replace the tools you need. I no longer have any faith that X will be able to solve my requirements. Wayland does.
  - CarelessExpert 6y ago
    > You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore. I... think you already understand why this is a disingenuous argument, but I'll explain anyway: The difference is, for most folks, X works, right now, today, while its maintainership is in question. For example, of the four items you listed, none of them particularly matter to me. ydotool, as an example, doesn't work and it's not maintained. Does that make sense? > I believe Wayland can eventually replace the tools you need Alright, well, ten years from now we should revisit this conversation! Unfortunately, at this point, the Wayland ecosystem is looking a bit like Zeno's Paradox...
anonunivgrad 6y ago
>on my compositor Yikes! So just more fragmentation and half-baked alternatives.
- CarelessExpert 6y ago
  This is actually an extremely important point. Because Wayland pushes so much logic into the compositor, there's now the very real likelihood that things will work on Gnome but not KDE, or work in i3 but not Gnome.
  - jolmg 6y ago
    Indeed. I wonder if these alternative tools are guaranteed to work no matter what compositor the user chooses for their computer. In X, the user has complete freedom over their WM and the tools will always work. You can build confidently on top of them. I'm concerned the same can't be said of Wayland.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    Why don't these compositor developers just get together and standardize?
    - emersion 6y ago
      That's what wayland-protocols [1] is for. [1]: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols
      - Spivak 6y ago
        And dbus for things that aren't in-scope for Wayland itself.
        marcthe12 6y ago
        That's kinda the full issue in standardizing. Gnome wants dbus for everything while sway wants wayland extension most things as they avoid using dbus code. So stuff like xsettings/xrdb or screensharing replacement has basically has wayland extension and a dbus API.
jancsika 6y ago
And I can develop on an ancient Thinkpad if I want. But I'm not going to claim that's the best UX. From the article, about X: > But using it to drive your display hardware and multiplex your input devices is choosing to make your life worse. This is a weird conflation of this developer's experience after being burned out on development, and the user's experience running a modern distro. If as I user I confuse those two things, then I'm going to click the button to choose Wayland when I log in. And I guarantee you my experience as a user will be worse on Ubuntu, Debian, and probably any other modern distro by making that choice. I can work around that worse user experience by choosing alternative to what doesn't work, but that's a separate issue from the default UX under Wayland making my life easier.

magicalhippo 6y ago

Ok so I've mainly used Windows, but I got a secondary machine with Linux, which for the last few years has been running KDE Neon which I rather enjoy. This whole "desktop stack" on Linux always makes my head hurt, so these might be really dumb questions: If I install some distro, Arch say, and I wanted to use Sway, and I then want to run Kile, will Kile then run through XWayland? Will it work just as well as Kile on KDE Neon? I understand KWin has some Wayland support but it also seems not quite ready for prime time the times I've tried it. So was curious about alternatives, just for curiosities sake.

chungy 6y ago
Kile most likely runs as a native Wayland application. Though for any legacy apps/games that use X, yeah they'll run in XWayland and should be seamless.
- CarelessExpert 6y ago
  Right... seamless... https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1065 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1065
emersion 6y ago
>If I install some distro, Arch say, and I wanted to use Sway, and I then want to run Kile, will Kile then run through XWayland? Kile seems to use Qt5, so should work without Xwayland. > Will it work just as well as Kile on KDE Neon? It should, yes. I don't use Kile though, so I haven't checked.
josefx 6y ago
> Kile Since Kile is a KDE application it should run using Qts wayland backend. > Will it work just as well as Kile on KDE Neon? Depends, do you need anything more fancy than mouse and keyboard? No? Then great. Power user functionality like copy paste on the other hand? https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4007 https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4007 might want to pray before using that.
- emersion 6y ago
  > Power user functionality like copy paste on the other hand? https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4007 https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4007 might want to pray before using that. Come on. Congratulations, you've found the only opened bug report about clipboard on Sway/wlroots. It's triggered by edge cases (X11 client hanging + fcitx apparently), and most of it has been fixed already. Are you really trying to convince people that the clipboard is broken on Wayland with this? Maybe you could start by actually trying Wayland.

pmoriarty 6y ago

Just to take a couple of examples from that list: ydotool is listed there as an equivalent of xdotool, but ydotool has only a tiny fraction of the features of xdotool. And it's unlikely that it'll get much better any time soon, as its README says: "Since Jun, 2019, I have little time to maintain this project" wtype is listed as another equivalent to xdotool, but it has even less features than ydotool. If the rest of the X equivalents on that list are as feature poor as these, I don't hold out much hope for Wayland in the near future.

horsawlarway 6y ago
I find this comment deeply ironic. You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore. --- Here's my take on your position - I absolutely agree that if you have processes and tooling in place that you currently depend on, and can't replace, you should stick with X. That said - As a way to manage input and output on my system (MY system, with my preferences and my requirements) I've found Wayland to be a delightfully better experience than X. So to come back at your list of requirements, mine looks like - Multimonitor support, including mixed scaling ratios - Touchpad input with gestures, approximately in line with the experience on OSX - A sane "default" that does not constantly require that I manually edit settings or xconf files on EVERY system I touch - No screen tearing or flickering. Seriously - NO! --- The difference between the two lists, is that I believe Wayland can eventually replace the tools you need. I no longer have any faith that X will be able to solve my requirements. Wayland does.
- CarelessExpert 6y ago
  > You're here complaining that a maintainer isn't around to add features in a thread that's literally a major maintainer of X server telling you he's not going to work to maintain the project anymore. I... think you already understand why this is a disingenuous argument, but I'll explain anyway: The difference is, for most folks, X works, right now, today, while its maintainership is in question. For example, of the four items you listed, none of them particularly matter to me. ydotool, as an example, doesn't work and it's not maintained. Does that make sense? > I believe Wayland can eventually replace the tools you need Alright, well, ten years from now we should revisit this conversation! Unfortunately, at this point, the Wayland ecosystem is looking a bit like Zeno's Paradox...

anonunivgrad 6y ago

>on my compositor Yikes! So just more fragmentation and half-baked alternatives.

CarelessExpert 6y ago
This is actually an extremely important point. Because Wayland pushes so much logic into the compositor, there's now the very real likelihood that things will work on Gnome but not KDE, or work in i3 but not Gnome.
- jolmg 6y ago
  Indeed. I wonder if these alternative tools are guaranteed to work no matter what compositor the user chooses for their computer. In X, the user has complete freedom over their WM and the tools will always work. You can build confidently on top of them. I'm concerned the same can't be said of Wayland.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  Why don't these compositor developers just get together and standardize?
  - emersion 6y ago
    That's what wayland-protocols [1] is for. [1]: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols
    - Spivak 6y ago
      And dbus for things that aren't in-scope for Wayland itself.
      - marcthe12 6y ago
        That's kinda the full issue in standardizing. Gnome wants dbus for everything while sway wants wayland extension most things as they avoid using dbus code. So stuff like xsettings/xrdb or screensharing replacement has basically has wayland extension and a dbus API.

jancsika 6y ago

And I can develop on an ancient Thinkpad if I want. But I'm not going to claim that's the best UX. From the article, about X: > But using it to drive your display hardware and multiplex your input devices is choosing to make your life worse. This is a weird conflation of this developer's experience after being burned out on development, and the user's experience running a modern distro. If as I user I confuse those two things, then I'm going to click the button to choose Wayland when I log in. And I guarantee you my experience as a user will be worse on Ubuntu, Debian, and probably any other modern distro by making that choice. I can work around that worse user experience by choosing alternative to what doesn't work, but that's a separate issue from the default UX under Wayland making my life easier.