4 ms·

How to Lose Developers & Alienate Others

16 points by myusuf3 15y ago

rkon 15y ago
I find it a little odd that you complain about the quality of content on HN, but when I look through your submissions you have 17 links to your own blog and 0 to other sources. Just sayin' edit: Also, the definition of 'bacn' is that it's not unsolicited.
- myusuf3 15y ago
  That's true; it's a tool I use. I will contribute what I find interesting and believe in. Doesn't mean i am abusing it. the community will upvote what they like.
gettinstarted 15y ago
It's natural to think that a bunch of tech types look for the most scalable ways to do anything. However, recruiting top talent doesn't easily scale ...that's why it's such a coveted skill to have. However, i'm sure the name-dropping power of that email is enough to recruit a lot of people. However, top talent never has a lack of opportunities or interesting projects to work on. What they really should have led with, since they were going for a fishing with grenades strategy is, startup currently valued at X willing to pay 150k+ Y % equity approach. He really should have read my post...http://startupsanddowns.blogspot.com/2011/04/it-not-them-its-you-why-you-cant.html http://startupsanddowns.blogspot.com/2011/04/it-not-them-its... (SHAMELESS PLUG)
nhangen 15y ago
Dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of HN readers would probably enjoy getting an email like that. Perhaps you can't see a good thing for what it is? There are worse problems to have.
ssmoot 15y ago
So he needed to be more sincere but less personal, and it can't have a hint that your name was just substituted in? That's an awfully high bar considering the next guy is going to complain that the email that suits you takes itself too seriously, shows that these are just biz-heads looking to ride a wave and can't connect on a meaningful level. I think you're making much ado about nothing. Ignore the email if you want. Or use it as an opening just to get a feel for the team. Either way, what you've done here just feels crass. Because they weren't telepathic, and stepped on some unwritten rule or another, you call them out publicly and target them for ridicule. We've all seen much worse when it comes to these types of emails. Time is limited. If you're willing to give people the benefit of a doubt there's as often as not someone genuine and decent on the other end of the line, even if the pitch ends up being something you're not too keen on. Maybe it shows a lack of experience on my part, but it does seem to me that _someone_ went to some pains to write up that email, even if it was used as a form, and it shows IMO.
- myusuf3 15y ago
  I don't know what article you read. but i clearly stated that Andrew is talented and he isn't the only one at fault for this behavior. It maybe crass but its simply not targeting them for ridicule. I am simply giving my point of view on a issue that i feel could be avoided if the writer of the email were bothered enough to add a couple of humane sentences to build a rapport. As supposed generically copying everyone, in order to get developer attention. He clearly did put time into a automated message. As did I here: Dear ssmoot, Thanks for the comment. Sincerely myusuf3
  - ssmoot 15y ago
    Maybe I was being overly sensitive. I do think you could've got your point across as easily without naming names though, or scrubbing the email to protect the "innocent". Since you did name names, I doubt any amount of compliments would avoid leaving a bad taste. As far as the message, maybe I'm just in a funny mood, but it strikes me as a great balance, and while I mentally get less excited about a project whenever I see "MySQL", it is probably about the nicest I've seen. In an attempt to be on topic though: If we're going to critique mailers like this, targeting the ones with the extensive Qualifications/Requirements list from recruiters to be allowed to work with their client's run-of-the-mill app seems fair enough. Here's one of my recent ones: Qualified candidates will possess the following skills and experience: * A proven background in Ruby on Rails design and development * Expertise in MVC architecture and design * Experience in MySQL RDBMS * Test Driven and Agile Development experience * If you have experience with other languages (e.g. PHP, Python, Objective-C), frameworks, multimedia, etc. all the better.</quote> Ok, so Rails+MySQL is about as vanilla as it gets in my book. MVC architecture and design though? Seriously, you can count the number of Rails developers who've put any thought whatsoever into that on one hand. In Rails it just "is". You don't think about it. Compare to http://codebetter.com/ http://codebetter.com/. Years after I left .NET and stopped following the blog yet these guys are still talking about fundamentals of OOAD in-depth, and exploring testability with an output from just this one multi-blog that probably equals every Ruby blogger ever. ;-) I mean, if you rule out the blogging about how you should use the latest vegetable themed testing framework that business people are going to use to drive requirements and change the world anyways. When I see "Agile Development" in a job pitch I automatically think "cowboys without a plan" these days. If you have flexible scope and/or deadlines driven by client collaboration and/or goal-oriented operations, make sure that's clear if you're going to mention the "A"-word. Without expanding on your process using the "Agile" phrase just comes off as shifting responsibility to developers to get it right without due-diligence from the business side. And when it's not right, or the requirements or goals are not well understood, it's typically going to be the Developer making up the difference by putting in extra hours to compensate for the lack of planning, with no realistic expectation of renumeration for his/her time. And again, I probably should know more about MySQL. I never did master it. After making the switch to PostgreSQL I managed to drastically reduce the effort required to get complex queries to perform as I'd expect a modern RDBMS should (my previous experience being with MSSQL, which other than portability issues is really an outstanding product in my book, really the only MS product I'm a fan of) and didn't look back. That's my own hangup based on my own personal experience though I suppose. It's probably not fair to mark down a mental demerit for it. I do anyways. ;-)
democracy 15y ago
A sharp eye may optimize the code a bit: boolean isTopGun = isAuthorTopGun(author); if (isTopGun) { author.setAttitude(Attitudes.DICK); } else { author.setAttitude(Attitudes.DICK); }

16 points by myusuf3 15y ago

rkon 15y ago

I find it a little odd that you complain about the quality of content on HN, but when I look through your submissions you have 17 links to your own blog and 0 to other sources. Just sayin' edit: Also, the definition of 'bacn' is that it's not unsolicited.

myusuf3 15y ago
That's true; it's a tool I use. I will contribute what I find interesting and believe in. Doesn't mean i am abusing it. the community will upvote what they like.

gettinstarted 15y ago

It's natural to think that a bunch of tech types look for the most scalable ways to do anything. However, recruiting top talent doesn't easily scale ...that's why it's such a coveted skill to have. However, i'm sure the name-dropping power of that email is enough to recruit a lot of people. However, top talent never has a lack of opportunities or interesting projects to work on. What they really should have led with, since they were going for a fishing with grenades strategy is, startup currently valued at X willing to pay 150k+ Y % equity approach. He really should have read my post...http://startupsanddowns.blogspot.com/2011/04/it-not-them-its-you-why-you-cant.html http://startupsanddowns.blogspot.com/2011/04/it-not-them-its... (SHAMELESS PLUG)

nhangen 15y ago

Dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of HN readers would probably enjoy getting an email like that. Perhaps you can't see a good thing for what it is? There are worse problems to have.

ssmoot 15y ago

So he needed to be more sincere but less personal, and it can't have a hint that your name was just substituted in? That's an awfully high bar considering the next guy is going to complain that the email that suits you takes itself too seriously, shows that these are just biz-heads looking to ride a wave and can't connect on a meaningful level. I think you're making much ado about nothing. Ignore the email if you want. Or use it as an opening just to get a feel for the team. Either way, what you've done here just feels crass. Because they weren't telepathic, and stepped on some unwritten rule or another, you call them out publicly and target them for ridicule. We've all seen much worse when it comes to these types of emails. Time is limited. If you're willing to give people the benefit of a doubt there's as often as not someone genuine and decent on the other end of the line, even if the pitch ends up being something you're not too keen on. Maybe it shows a lack of experience on my part, but it does seem to me that _someone_ went to some pains to write up that email, even if it was used as a form, and it shows IMO.

myusuf3 15y ago
I don't know what article you read. but i clearly stated that Andrew is talented and he isn't the only one at fault for this behavior. It maybe crass but its simply not targeting them for ridicule. I am simply giving my point of view on a issue that i feel could be avoided if the writer of the email were bothered enough to add a couple of humane sentences to build a rapport. As supposed generically copying everyone, in order to get developer attention. He clearly did put time into a automated message. As did I here: Dear ssmoot, Thanks for the comment. Sincerely myusuf3
- ssmoot 15y ago
  Maybe I was being overly sensitive. I do think you could've got your point across as easily without naming names though, or scrubbing the email to protect the "innocent". Since you did name names, I doubt any amount of compliments would avoid leaving a bad taste. As far as the message, maybe I'm just in a funny mood, but it strikes me as a great balance, and while I mentally get less excited about a project whenever I see "MySQL", it is probably about the nicest I've seen. In an attempt to be on topic though: If we're going to critique mailers like this, targeting the ones with the extensive Qualifications/Requirements list from recruiters to be allowed to work with their client's run-of-the-mill app seems fair enough. Here's one of my recent ones: Qualified candidates will possess the following skills and experience: * A proven background in Ruby on Rails design and development * Expertise in MVC architecture and design * Experience in MySQL RDBMS * Test Driven and Agile Development experience * If you have experience with other languages (e.g. PHP, Python, Objective-C), frameworks, multimedia, etc. all the better.</quote> Ok, so Rails+MySQL is about as vanilla as it gets in my book. MVC architecture and design though? Seriously, you can count the number of Rails developers who've put any thought whatsoever into that on one hand. In Rails it just "is". You don't think about it. Compare to http://codebetter.com/ http://codebetter.com/. Years after I left .NET and stopped following the blog yet these guys are still talking about fundamentals of OOAD in-depth, and exploring testability with an output from just this one multi-blog that probably equals every Ruby blogger ever. ;-) I mean, if you rule out the blogging about how you should use the latest vegetable themed testing framework that business people are going to use to drive requirements and change the world anyways. When I see "Agile Development" in a job pitch I automatically think "cowboys without a plan" these days. If you have flexible scope and/or deadlines driven by client collaboration and/or goal-oriented operations, make sure that's clear if you're going to mention the "A"-word. Without expanding on your process using the "Agile" phrase just comes off as shifting responsibility to developers to get it right without due-diligence from the business side. And when it's not right, or the requirements or goals are not well understood, it's typically going to be the Developer making up the difference by putting in extra hours to compensate for the lack of planning, with no realistic expectation of renumeration for his/her time. And again, I probably should know more about MySQL. I never did master it. After making the switch to PostgreSQL I managed to drastically reduce the effort required to get complex queries to perform as I'd expect a modern RDBMS should (my previous experience being with MSSQL, which other than portability issues is really an outstanding product in my book, really the only MS product I'm a fan of) and didn't look back. That's my own hangup based on my own personal experience though I suppose. It's probably not fair to mark down a mental demerit for it. I do anyways. ;-)

democracy 15y ago

A sharp eye may optimize the code a bit: boolean isTopGun = isAuthorTopGun(author); if (isTopGun) { author.setAttitude(Attitudes.DICK); } else { author.setAttitude(Attitudes.DICK); }