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Being a civilian doesn't grant you special plot shield. Civilians move the country's industry, which is directed towards the war effort. War is not about a fron

Being a civilian doesn't grant you special plot shield. Civilians move the country's industry, which is directed towards the war effort. War is not about a front, somewhere away, in the distance, where soldiers throw lead at each other at high speeds. Everyone is involved in it one way or another. These were industrial cities related to that war effort, not summer seaside camps. Besides... the drawn out and bloody WW, taken all the exhaustion, considering who they were up against, the cost of it...

dotancohen 6y ago
> Being a civilian doesn't grant you special plot shield. In my army it does. We take all precautions to shield civilians where practical. I'm an infantryman and I've seen soldiers continue to take fire to protect Arab civilians from getting caught in the middle. I cannot tell you if by policy that is a result of every time the Israeli army so much as scratches an Arab civilian that it becomes international news, but it is ingrained in most soldiers personal moral beliefs as well. There is no lack of counterexamples that you could google, but as policy and as most soldiers' morals, protecting civilians - from both sides - is as paramount to us as the Prime Directive is to Picard. What nation do you represent that "being a civilian doesn't grant you special plot shield"? I thought that was standard military procedure to avoid civilian casualties since at least the second world war.
- petertodd 6y ago
  > In my army it does. We take all precautions to shield civilians where practical. In Afghtanistan, the Taliban represented well under 1% of the population(1). In WWII 31% of the German population, and 9% of the American population, were in military service. Those are just two very different wars, fought at very different scales. A good example of this is in WWII it seems that it was fairly common for planes to strafe farmers and their equipment when they got an opportunity(3). In Afghanistan this would be incredibly counter productive, as so few Afghans were actually fighting. But in WWII? When a full 1/3rd of the population is in the military - and much of the rest is working in the industries necessary to keep the military running - ethics aside, it's easy to see how anything that reduced food supplies would have a direct effect on the effectiveness of the military. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban - reports 60k Taliban / 37 million Afghtanistan population = 0.16% 2) http://historynet.com/what-percentage-of-the-population-served-in-ww2.htm http://historynet.com/what-percentage-of-the-population-serv... 3) https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/3nla50/allied_gun_camera_of_strafing_attacks_on_horse/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/3nla50/allie...
- sto_hristo 6y ago
  Nobody is talking about indiscriminate murder of randomly picked civilians out of spite. But when those civilians are the machine that drives the war, they become part of that war. That is why in a total war between nations you send hundreds of planes to carpet bomb relevant cities (incl. their population) to cripple enemy nation's ability to keep waging the war against you. They are not sent to bomb ski resorts or villages where nothing happens. Do you consider someone that puts together IEDs for someone else to deploy an untouchable person that your need to leave alone? This person is unarmed, he's not a combatant, he's no threat to you, he just googled how to put a bunch of stuff together. I know for myself, that if i find myself in the middle of a war i don't believe in, i'd pick my shit up and leave immediately, go anywhere else. I wouldn't just stay where i am, coding my web apps next to a goddamn bomb factory or HQ of some kind in complete denial of my surroundings, the current situation, and reality itself, while bombs are being air mailed to said factory/HQ next to me. But if chose to stay either because i want to be part of that war or am simply clueless, i can't blame anyone but me for the situation i find myself in.
  - dotancohen 6y ago
    Maybe if your occupation is coding web apps online, then you can pick up and go. Many of the Arab families in the area have a dozen children per wife, and live off agriculture, herding, or have workshops, bakeries, and the like. None of these people could even move their families, much less their livelihoods.

dotancohen 6y ago

> Being a civilian doesn't grant you special plot shield. In my army it does. We take all precautions to shield civilians where practical. I'm an infantryman and I've seen soldiers continue to take fire to protect Arab civilians from getting caught in the middle. I cannot tell you if by policy that is a result of every time the Israeli army so much as scratches an Arab civilian that it becomes international news, but it is ingrained in most soldiers personal moral beliefs as well. There is no lack of counterexamples that you could google, but as policy and as most soldiers' morals, protecting civilians - from both sides - is as paramount to us as the Prime Directive is to Picard. What nation do you represent that "being a civilian doesn't grant you special plot shield"? I thought that was standard military procedure to avoid civilian casualties since at least the second world war.

petertodd 6y ago
> In my army it does. We take all precautions to shield civilians where practical. In Afghtanistan, the Taliban represented well under 1% of the population(1). In WWII 31% of the German population, and 9% of the American population, were in military service. Those are just two very different wars, fought at very different scales. A good example of this is in WWII it seems that it was fairly common for planes to strafe farmers and their equipment when they got an opportunity(3). In Afghanistan this would be incredibly counter productive, as so few Afghans were actually fighting. But in WWII? When a full 1/3rd of the population is in the military - and much of the rest is working in the industries necessary to keep the military running - ethics aside, it's easy to see how anything that reduced food supplies would have a direct effect on the effectiveness of the military. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban - reports 60k Taliban / 37 million Afghtanistan population = 0.16% 2) http://historynet.com/what-percentage-of-the-population-served-in-ww2.htm http://historynet.com/what-percentage-of-the-population-serv... 3) https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/3nla50/allied_gun_camera_of_strafing_attacks_on_horse/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/3nla50/allie...
sto_hristo 6y ago
Nobody is talking about indiscriminate murder of randomly picked civilians out of spite. But when those civilians are the machine that drives the war, they become part of that war. That is why in a total war between nations you send hundreds of planes to carpet bomb relevant cities (incl. their population) to cripple enemy nation's ability to keep waging the war against you. They are not sent to bomb ski resorts or villages where nothing happens. Do you consider someone that puts together IEDs for someone else to deploy an untouchable person that your need to leave alone? This person is unarmed, he's not a combatant, he's no threat to you, he just googled how to put a bunch of stuff together. I know for myself, that if i find myself in the middle of a war i don't believe in, i'd pick my shit up and leave immediately, go anywhere else. I wouldn't just stay where i am, coding my web apps next to a goddamn bomb factory or HQ of some kind in complete denial of my surroundings, the current situation, and reality itself, while bombs are being air mailed to said factory/HQ next to me. But if chose to stay either because i want to be part of that war or am simply clueless, i can't blame anyone but me for the situation i find myself in.
- dotancohen 6y ago
  Maybe if your occupation is coding web apps online, then you can pick up and go. Many of the Arab families in the area have a dozen children per wife, and live off agriculture, herding, or have workshops, bakeries, and the like. None of these people could even move their families, much less their livelihoods.