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Hitler was not opposed and defeated because of the Holocaust. If Hitler had somehow conquered Europe and installed a stable power, the Holocaust probably would

Hitler was not opposed and defeated because of the Holocaust. If Hitler had somehow conquered Europe and installed a stable power, the Holocaust probably would be a footnote.

pmachinery 6y ago
In that circumstance it wouldn't even be a footnote; nobody would even hear of it, except perhaps as a "conspiracy theory".
- andromeduck 6y ago
  Eh, probably more like how the Holodomor is treated in Russia or Nanking massacre in Japan and the west for that matter: disputed by apologists in public, lauded by nationalists in private, denied by the people in power and mostly forgotten by the rest.
- jondubois 6y ago
  Exactly. People can't wrap their minds around the fact that their own country is constantly peddling propaganda. I noticed this after I started travelling around the world working in different countries. Every single country is constantly pushing its own propaganda and they all have some element of truth mixed together with lies. Conspiracy theory is how governments hides aspects of the truth that they don't like.
- the-dude 6y ago
  jon(dubois), you are dead & shadow banned.
  - jondubois 6y ago
    How can you see my comment? What do you mean dead? This better not be a death threat.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    Jon, shadow banned means you can only see yourself ( and us who have show dead on ). Log out or take an incognito-window : you will find your comment missing. If you want to correct this, contact HN ( see footer ).
    - jondubois 6y ago
      Ah OK, I suspected maybe because my score is negative. Thanks for letting me know.
- emilsedgh 6y ago
  United States dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan and most it's citizens don't/didn't feel bad about it. Why do you think a victorious German society would've cared that deeply about Jews who have been historically loathed? It would've been publicized as a success, not something to hide away.
  - pmachinery 6y ago
    > United States dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan and most it's citizens don't/didn't feel bad about it. The US didn't drop nuclear bombs on Japan just because the people there are Japanese. > Why do you think a victorious German society would've cared that deeply about Jews who have been historically loathed? Why do you think Germans would not care that their government exterminated six million Jews? > It would've been publicized as a success, not something to hide away. Then why did they take such great lengths to hide it away?
ReptileMan 6y ago
I don't think that Holocaust did even had such a mindshare for a some time afterwards. People were quite desensitized back then - you had horrors aplenty to choose from. But then you had the rise in all aspects of art, politics and culture of the Jewish Americans and for them obviously it was the event in WWII and great part of their identity and life. So it percolated to the other parts of the society. If Chinese Americans have risen to prominence in the 80s we would have gotten Unit 731 instead of Schindler's list. After all a creator creates on topics that are close to them. In my part of Eastern Europe when learning about WWII the emphasis was about the monumental struggle and bodycount of the USSR and the Holocaust was sidelined.
- the-dude 6y ago
  Interesting, thanks. Maybe because The Netherlands actually did ( or suffered ) so little, it has been Holocaust front and center.
- paulie_a 6y ago
  You are incorrect, it was so horrific that the US president had as many troops as possible "tour" the sites as possible to be witnesses of what happened. It was kind of a big deal immediately
  - the-dude 6y ago
    It was one hell of an opportunity that is for sure. Almost a blessing in disguise.
  - throwaway2048 6y ago
    People like Eisenhower (who was a general at the time) immediately knew it would be downplayed and denied https://remember.org/facts-aft-lib-eis.html https://remember.org/facts-aft-lib-eis.html
  - krapp 6y ago
    It was such a big deal they had to make up a whole new word for it.
  - 6y ago
cm2187 6y ago
Not the least because the holocaust happened late in the war. I underdstand Hitler's original plan was to exile those populations [1], and the turn of ww2 forced him to come up with another plan. That is still ethnic cleansing but not of the same degree of horror. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan
brnt 6y ago
This is what boggles my mind: if Hitler and his cronies had been competent military leaders and limited the scope of their war and stopped at the English channel and kept the peace with Russia, or at least one of those, it seems to me chances were pretty good the Nazi grasp of Europe could have solidified and perhaps grown permanent. What a nightmarish scenario that is... I am therefore happy the Nazis bit off more than they could chew by starting a war with the Brits, which eventually brought the Americans on board, and the Russians, where they suffered most of their losses. On the one hand it seems that it's just a matter of chance their leadership was so grossly incompetent, but on the other hand maybe we can always bank on such types to get caught up in their own rhetoric and they by definition are too ambitious for their own 'good'.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Surrender of France: June 1940 Barbarossa (invasion of USSR): June 1941 Pearl Harbor: December 1941. If the Nazis had somehow negotiated a successful end to hostilities with the UK between 1940 and 1941, they could have become a stable power holding much of central Europe. The problem they faced was lack of oil - there isn't much central Europe. That forced the push east into the oil fields of the caucasus. The Japanese invasions were similarly triggered by the need for oil that could not be embargoed from them.
  - pmachinery 6y ago
    Without a war with the USSR they could (continue to) be supplied by the USSR.

Hitler was not opposed and defeated because of the Holocaust. If Hitler had somehow conquered Europe and installed a stable power, the Holocaust probably would be a footnote.

pmachinery 6y ago

In that circumstance it wouldn't even be a footnote; nobody would even hear of it, except perhaps as a "conspiracy theory".

andromeduck 6y ago
Eh, probably more like how the Holodomor is treated in Russia or Nanking massacre in Japan and the west for that matter: disputed by apologists in public, lauded by nationalists in private, denied by the people in power and mostly forgotten by the rest.
jondubois 6y ago
Exactly. People can't wrap their minds around the fact that their own country is constantly peddling propaganda. I noticed this after I started travelling around the world working in different countries. Every single country is constantly pushing its own propaganda and they all have some element of truth mixed together with lies. Conspiracy theory is how governments hides aspects of the truth that they don't like.
the-dude 6y ago
jon(dubois), you are dead & shadow banned.
- jondubois 6y ago
  How can you see my comment? What do you mean dead? This better not be a death threat.
- the-dude 6y ago
  Jon, shadow banned means you can only see yourself ( and us who have show dead on ). Log out or take an incognito-window : you will find your comment missing. If you want to correct this, contact HN ( see footer ).
  - jondubois 6y ago
    Ah OK, I suspected maybe because my score is negative. Thanks for letting me know.
emilsedgh 6y ago
United States dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan and most it's citizens don't/didn't feel bad about it. Why do you think a victorious German society would've cared that deeply about Jews who have been historically loathed? It would've been publicized as a success, not something to hide away.
- pmachinery 6y ago
  > United States dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan and most it's citizens don't/didn't feel bad about it. The US didn't drop nuclear bombs on Japan just because the people there are Japanese. > Why do you think a victorious German society would've cared that deeply about Jews who have been historically loathed? Why do you think Germans would not care that their government exterminated six million Jews? > It would've been publicized as a success, not something to hide away. Then why did they take such great lengths to hide it away?

ReptileMan 6y ago

I don't think that Holocaust did even had such a mindshare for a some time afterwards. People were quite desensitized back then - you had horrors aplenty to choose from. But then you had the rise in all aspects of art, politics and culture of the Jewish Americans and for them obviously it was the event in WWII and great part of their identity and life. So it percolated to the other parts of the society. If Chinese Americans have risen to prominence in the 80s we would have gotten Unit 731 instead of Schindler's list. After all a creator creates on topics that are close to them. In my part of Eastern Europe when learning about WWII the emphasis was about the monumental struggle and bodycount of the USSR and the Holocaust was sidelined.

the-dude 6y ago
Interesting, thanks. Maybe because The Netherlands actually did ( or suffered ) so little, it has been Holocaust front and center.
paulie_a 6y ago
You are incorrect, it was so horrific that the US president had as many troops as possible "tour" the sites as possible to be witnesses of what happened. It was kind of a big deal immediately
- the-dude 6y ago
  It was one hell of an opportunity that is for sure. Almost a blessing in disguise.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  People like Eisenhower (who was a general at the time) immediately knew it would be downplayed and denied https://remember.org/facts-aft-lib-eis.html https://remember.org/facts-aft-lib-eis.html
- krapp 6y ago
  It was such a big deal they had to make up a whole new word for it.
- 6y ago

cm2187 6y ago

Not the least because the holocaust happened late in the war. I underdstand Hitler's original plan was to exile those populations [1], and the turn of ww2 forced him to come up with another plan. That is still ethnic cleansing but not of the same degree of horror. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

brnt 6y ago

This is what boggles my mind: if Hitler and his cronies had been competent military leaders and limited the scope of their war and stopped at the English channel and kept the peace with Russia, or at least one of those, it seems to me chances were pretty good the Nazi grasp of Europe could have solidified and perhaps grown permanent. What a nightmarish scenario that is... I am therefore happy the Nazis bit off more than they could chew by starting a war with the Brits, which eventually brought the Americans on board, and the Russians, where they suffered most of their losses. On the one hand it seems that it's just a matter of chance their leadership was so grossly incompetent, but on the other hand maybe we can always bank on such types to get caught up in their own rhetoric and they by definition are too ambitious for their own 'good'.

pjc50 6y ago
Surrender of France: June 1940 Barbarossa (invasion of USSR): June 1941 Pearl Harbor: December 1941. If the Nazis had somehow negotiated a successful end to hostilities with the UK between 1940 and 1941, they could have become a stable power holding much of central Europe. The problem they faced was lack of oil - there isn't much central Europe. That forced the push east into the oil fields of the caucasus. The Japanese invasions were similarly triggered by the need for oil that could not be embargoed from them.
- pmachinery 6y ago
  Without a war with the USSR they could (continue to) be supplied by the USSR.