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This is great, but I no longer feel that the macOS HIG represents usable design for anybody. Apple's native apps are confusing and inconsistent. XCode is perhap

This is great, but I no longer feel that the macOS HIG represents usable design for anybody. Apple's native apps are confusing and inconsistent. XCode is perhaps the worst offender. (Is that because it's okay to ship sub-par experiences to developers? ) My opinion is that Google's UX is now best in class -- things like Google Docs that are just nearing perfection that everyone seems to have no trouble with. Youtube would be another example of a highly effective UI. I do think native is quite overrated :)

jlundberg 6y ago
One specific thing that Google does terribly UI-wise is the G Suite admin panel.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  Meh, it's pretty bad, but I can't think of any backoffice tool admin panels that are any better.
soylentgraham 6y ago
Finding specific documents from all different people/domains when you have hundreds, with obfuscated urls, is a nightmare with docs/sheets. There is zero organisation.
- nl 6y ago
  This is so true. They are obviously trying - I keep seeing things like workspaces and pinning docs that are obviously experiments in trying to fix it. But not there yet! I do agree that the Google Suite of tools are very usable though.
nmfisher 6y ago
I never miss an opportunity to publicly restate just how god-awful XCode is. I think it is literally the worst developer tool I have ever come across. I don’t think I have ever heard one good thing said about it. Coming mostly from a Windows desktop background, I only started developing for Apple devices late on. Holy shit, I can’t believe people have been putting themselves through that horrible experience for the better part of two decades.
- etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
  I think if you only use XCode and really get used to it through and through, it could be a good tool. But it is so unintuitive it's staggering, and does not have terribly advanced features for an IDE.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    I think if you use Xcode enough you can come to like it. What it does well it does really well–I have yet to see something that bundles as many good, advanced tools for building, debugging, and profiling in one pretty package as Xcode does. Most of the hate for Xcode seems to (rightfully) be aimed at its instability when working with things like codesigning, devices, or source control–IMO this this because they have a different process internally for their use than external developers. If you really understand who Xcode is aimed at (Apple) and how it is supposed to work (Apple's workflows) you can generally understand it.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I'm the same and have been very disapointed with the whole Apple developer experience. Coming from C#/Visual Studio/Resharper to Xcode has been a huge step backwards. It's not just the tooling either, the documentation is nowhere near as comprehensive. Having said that I despair at what Windows has become.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  People who use Xcode long enough usually get through the phase where they hate it with every fiber of their being. It's like Stockholm syndrome, except you realize your captor wants you to be happy but is also kind of insane.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
    > It's like Stockholm syndrome, except you realize your captor wants you to be happy but is also kind of insane. I love that metaphor! The main issue I have with Xcode, is that it is buggy as hell. I was hoping Xcode 12 would address this, but it’s just as bad as its predecessors.
aikinai 6y ago
> things like Google Docs that are just nearing perfection I'm completely baffled by this statement. The Google Docs UI hasn't changed since it was released ten years ago and it's just an imitation of Microsoft Word from the mid-nineties. What is good or special about it?
- etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
  All else equal, I'd say its a good thing when user interfaces don't change. The simplicity of the collaboration features was a huge game changer at the time, and it's still best-in-class and very easy.
jmnicolas 6y ago
> Youtube would be another example of a highly effective UI. Because it doesn't do much. I'm quite frustrated by the lack of features for advanced users.

jlundberg 6y ago

One specific thing that Google does terribly UI-wise is the G Suite admin panel.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
Meh, it's pretty bad, but I can't think of any backoffice tool admin panels that are any better.

soylentgraham 6y ago

Finding specific documents from all different people/domains when you have hundreds, with obfuscated urls, is a nightmare with docs/sheets. There is zero organisation.

nl 6y ago
This is so true. They are obviously trying - I keep seeing things like workspaces and pinning docs that are obviously experiments in trying to fix it. But not there yet! I do agree that the Google Suite of tools are very usable though.

nmfisher 6y ago

I never miss an opportunity to publicly restate just how god-awful XCode is. I think it is literally the worst developer tool I have ever come across. I don’t think I have ever heard one good thing said about it. Coming mostly from a Windows desktop background, I only started developing for Apple devices late on. Holy shit, I can’t believe people have been putting themselves through that horrible experience for the better part of two decades.

etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
I think if you only use XCode and really get used to it through and through, it could be a good tool. But it is so unintuitive it's staggering, and does not have terribly advanced features for an IDE.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  I think if you use Xcode enough you can come to like it. What it does well it does really well–I have yet to see something that bundles as many good, advanced tools for building, debugging, and profiling in one pretty package as Xcode does. Most of the hate for Xcode seems to (rightfully) be aimed at its instability when working with things like codesigning, devices, or source control–IMO this this because they have a different process internally for their use than external developers. If you really understand who Xcode is aimed at (Apple) and how it is supposed to work (Apple's workflows) you can generally understand it.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
I'm the same and have been very disapointed with the whole Apple developer experience. Coming from C#/Visual Studio/Resharper to Xcode has been a huge step backwards. It's not just the tooling either, the documentation is nowhere near as comprehensive. Having said that I despair at what Windows has become.
saagarjha 6y ago
People who use Xcode long enough usually get through the phase where they hate it with every fiber of their being. It's like Stockholm syndrome, except you realize your captor wants you to be happy but is also kind of insane.
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  > It's like Stockholm syndrome, except you realize your captor wants you to be happy but is also kind of insane. I love that metaphor! The main issue I have with Xcode, is that it is buggy as hell. I was hoping Xcode 12 would address this, but it’s just as bad as its predecessors.

aikinai 6y ago

> things like Google Docs that are just nearing perfection I'm completely baffled by this statement. The Google Docs UI hasn't changed since it was released ten years ago and it's just an imitation of Microsoft Word from the mid-nineties. What is good or special about it?

etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
All else equal, I'd say its a good thing when user interfaces don't change. The simplicity of the collaboration features was a huge game changer at the time, and it's still best-in-class and very easy.

jmnicolas 6y ago

> Youtube would be another example of a highly effective UI. Because it doesn't do much. I'm quite frustrated by the lack of features for advanced users.