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Had they not recently changed the charging options (shipping USB-C cables and MagSafe) and stuck with the classical Lightning to USB-A scheme I would have been

Had they not recently changed the charging options (shipping USB-C cables and MagSafe) and stuck with the classical Lightning to USB-A scheme I would have been fine with Apple not bundling the cables and chargers in the box. Because most folks have them in excess and these don't ever die. But since they changed the charging options, it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are trying really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one.

Bud 6y ago
Why? All of those old USB-A chargers and USB-A/Lightning cables will still charge the new iPhones perfectly well. So will every iPad charger ever made, btw. And every USB-C Mac charger ever made. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether you or any particular observer wants to give credit for this reducing e-waste or being "eco-friendly". It's a plainly obvious fact that it will massively reduce e-waste and be a massive net positive on the eco-friendly front, in about 5 different ways. Those facts remain valid regardless of how one chooses to think about the ethical/moral/environmental cred or goodwill that Apple deserves for this move, or Apple's profit motives.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Sure. But it's not the optimal experience.
  - Bud 6y ago
    For me it's an optimal experience: my device cost went down, I get to choose what I spend that money on (such as superior 3rd-party chargers with multiple ports), and I get the satisfaction of knowing that Apple didn't waste planetary resources making inflexible single-port chargers and $5 wired earbuds that I will never, ever use. I do admit that it's not optimal for every single user, but I do think it's a net improvement for most users.
    - paledot 6y ago
      Or Apple's did. Do you really think they're passing the savings on to the customer?
      - notJim 6y ago
        Honestly, who cares? If you're spending $1200 or whatever on a phone, is your life really that much better if you spend $1190 instead?
      - shuckles 6y ago
        Luca their CFO has consistently said on investor calls that they aim for 35% gross margins, so any excess seems indeed reinvested into other features on the BOM or passed on to the customer.
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      > my device cost went down This seems to be a common narrative, that the savings have been passed onto the consumer. Is it really true? It's difficult to be sure, as there's no iPhone 12 that comes with the plug + earbuds bundled. However, there is one data point that most people don't bother to consider. The iPhone SE (2020) base model launched at $399 in April. It still retails for $399 today. In April, the iPhone SE shipped with headphones and a plug.[0] It doesn't anymore today.[1] In the case of the iPhone SE, the price absolutely did not go down. All that happened was that Apple increased their profit margins. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20200427193132/https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-se https://web.archive.org/web/20200427193132/https://www.apple... [1] As part of our efforts to reach our environmental goals, iPhone SE does not include a power adapter or EarPods. Included in the box is a USB‑C to Lightning cable that supports fast charging and is compatible with USB‑C power adapters and computer ports. https://web.archive.org/web/20201023201007/https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-se https://web.archive.org/web/20201023201007/https://www.apple...
      - whynaut 6y ago
        I wasn't aware of the change to the SE 2020, but for 12s, storage is doubled across the line (or price dropped $100, depending how you look at it).
- ochoseis 6y ago
  Apple’s move and their explanation honestly feels about as genuine as hotels asking you to be eco friendly by hanging the door-tag to skip room cleaning. The difference is that hotels at least give you the option.
  - toast0 6y ago
    Isn't Apple giving you a new option here? Before, you were forced to buy the bundled wall wart, now you have the option to keep using what you had or buy a charger if you need it? They're still forcing a bundled cable, but it's a different cable you probably don't have many of?
    - p1esk 6y ago
      But, just like with hotels, you’re still paying the same price.
      - tshaddox 6y ago
        Sure, Apple also might tend to get more money per iPhone customer now, but that doesn't invalidate the environmental argument.
      - kd913 6y ago
        Then don't get an iphone 12? People who are buying an iphone aren't doing it because of the included power brick. There is the iphone SE 2, Pixel 4a etc... If it's such a problem, buy a braided cable from Amazon and power brick. Cheaper cost, better quality and will last longer than any Apple charger.
        poglet 6y ago
        The iPhone SE 2 no longer comes with the power brick.
        kd913 6y ago
        If you have no power bricks at all then applause to you. In any given room I can find at least 5 I think. For 0.025% of the price of the phone or less, you can get a braided lightning cable and stop caring about this first world problem.
- criddell 6y ago
  > a massive net positive on the eco-friendly front Isn't wireless charging a big step backwards with respect to power efficiency? With the millions of phones they sell and the fact that every one of them is charged daily, are the losses due to Apples new charging scheme insignificant?
  - selectodude 6y ago
    If a MagSafe charger can charge at 15W using a 20W Apple charger, that's a 75 percent charge efficiency. The charger itself is about 80 percent efficient converting from the wall, so the whole thing is about 60 percent efficient. An iPhone 12 has a 15 wh battery, so you need about 25 wh to charge the battery fully vs 19 wh. So the losses for 17,000 full charges using MagSafe over a regular cable would equal the charge in a 100kwh Tesla Model S. ETA: the total charging loss from ten million iPhones charging 0-100 percent via MagSafe every day for a year would be 21,505 teslas.
    - jiofih 6y ago
      Your numbers are a bit high, wired chargers have become more efficient and barely waste any energy, see here: (14wh spent to charge a 13wh battery) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309917872_Improving_wireless_charging_energy_efficiency_of_mobile_phones_Analysis_of_key_practices https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309917872_Improving... The last bit is also wrong, 6wh * 10M = 600 Teslas. You can also read as “600 Teslas can provide phone charging for ten million people for an entire year”, take it as you wish... Your fridge can easily use 100kWh a month. You’ll save far more energy by closing the door a couple seconds early every time you open it. Phone charging is a drop in the bucket.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    Wired chargers are 85%-90% efficient, Qi is somewhat between 75-85%. If you live in a country powered by green energy it shouldn’t be a concern :)
    - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
chrisseaton 6y ago
Why do you want a USB-A charging cable in 2020? My laptops don't have that anymore, and I don't even have recent laptops. Like most people I know would have to to use a dongle. No thanks. Move as quickly as possible to USB-C, please Apple, and no need for charging bricks anymore. > it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are trying really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one This is cynical.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  > > it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are trying really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one > This is cynical. The iPhone SE launched with earbuds and a plug. It no longer ships with them. The retail price hasn't changed. It can be good for the environment and a cost-cutting measure. Another commenter has noted that by making the box about half as thick, that doubles the number of units that can fit in a container. That's a huge saving for Apple. And yet the iPhone SE still retails at the same price despite now including less.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Maybe prices for materials or manufacturing or handling went up? Maybe they want to make some more profit this year for their workers and shareholders? Times are hard. Why is any of this your business? Either the price works for you or it doesn't. There's no moral component to this. You aren't entitled to low costs.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      > Why is any of this your business? Because I am the person paying for the thing?
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        But why do you care what their costs are? What will you do with that information? Either the product is worth it for what you need or it isn’t.
pilsetnieks 6y ago
For some reason, and I really cannot fathom why, a lot of people seem to think they changed charging options. They didn't. They added a new, optional one. Everything that used to charge an iPhone 11 will still charge an iPhone 12. I'm even willing to bet money on the fact that the original 30-pin connector (via an adapter) will charge the new phones. An iPod dock from 2001 would probably charge these phones.
sambe 6y ago
The cables die all the time! (depending on how much exposed innards you are comfortable with). They last longer when other family members are not using them but even my exclusive, careful use of one that only sits by my bed has pulled itself apart. The article is a bit of a strawman but I think it's inexcusable to be charging nearly twice the price of the charger for a 2m cable that disintegrates after a year or two. Especially when - as you say - they've changed the one in the box backwards-incompatibly (and it's 1m too).

Bud 6y ago

Why? All of those old USB-A chargers and USB-A/Lightning cables will still charge the new iPhones perfectly well. So will every iPad charger ever made, btw. And every USB-C Mac charger ever made. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether you or any particular observer wants to give credit for this reducing e-waste or being "eco-friendly". It's a plainly obvious fact that it will massively reduce e-waste and be a massive net positive on the eco-friendly front, in about 5 different ways. Those facts remain valid regardless of how one chooses to think about the ethical/moral/environmental cred or goodwill that Apple deserves for this move, or Apple's profit motives.

908B64B197 6y ago
Sure. But it's not the optimal experience.
- Bud 6y ago
  For me it's an optimal experience: my device cost went down, I get to choose what I spend that money on (such as superior 3rd-party chargers with multiple ports), and I get the satisfaction of knowing that Apple didn't waste planetary resources making inflexible single-port chargers and $5 wired earbuds that I will never, ever use. I do admit that it's not optimal for every single user, but I do think it's a net improvement for most users.
  - paledot 6y ago
    Or Apple's did. Do you really think they're passing the savings on to the customer?
    - notJim 6y ago
      Honestly, who cares? If you're spending $1200 or whatever on a phone, is your life really that much better if you spend $1190 instead?
    - shuckles 6y ago
      Luca their CFO has consistently said on investor calls that they aim for 35% gross margins, so any excess seems indeed reinvested into other features on the BOM or passed on to the customer.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    > my device cost went down This seems to be a common narrative, that the savings have been passed onto the consumer. Is it really true? It's difficult to be sure, as there's no iPhone 12 that comes with the plug + earbuds bundled. However, there is one data point that most people don't bother to consider. The iPhone SE (2020) base model launched at $399 in April. It still retails for $399 today. In April, the iPhone SE shipped with headphones and a plug.[0] It doesn't anymore today.[1] In the case of the iPhone SE, the price absolutely did not go down. All that happened was that Apple increased their profit margins. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20200427193132/https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-se https://web.archive.org/web/20200427193132/https://www.apple... [1] As part of our efforts to reach our environmental goals, iPhone SE does not include a power adapter or EarPods. Included in the box is a USB‑C to Lightning cable that supports fast charging and is compatible with USB‑C power adapters and computer ports. https://web.archive.org/web/20201023201007/https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-se https://web.archive.org/web/20201023201007/https://www.apple...
    - whynaut 6y ago
      I wasn't aware of the change to the SE 2020, but for 12s, storage is doubled across the line (or price dropped $100, depending how you look at it).
ochoseis 6y ago
Apple’s move and their explanation honestly feels about as genuine as hotels asking you to be eco friendly by hanging the door-tag to skip room cleaning. The difference is that hotels at least give you the option.
- toast0 6y ago
  Isn't Apple giving you a new option here? Before, you were forced to buy the bundled wall wart, now you have the option to keep using what you had or buy a charger if you need it? They're still forcing a bundled cable, but it's a different cable you probably don't have many of?
  - p1esk 6y ago
    But, just like with hotels, you’re still paying the same price.
    - tshaddox 6y ago
      Sure, Apple also might tend to get more money per iPhone customer now, but that doesn't invalidate the environmental argument.
    - kd913 6y ago
      Then don't get an iphone 12? People who are buying an iphone aren't doing it because of the included power brick. There is the iphone SE 2, Pixel 4a etc... If it's such a problem, buy a braided cable from Amazon and power brick. Cheaper cost, better quality and will last longer than any Apple charger.
      - poglet 6y ago
        The iPhone SE 2 no longer comes with the power brick.
        kd913 6y ago
        If you have no power bricks at all then applause to you. In any given room I can find at least 5 I think. For 0.025% of the price of the phone or less, you can get a braided lightning cable and stop caring about this first world problem.
criddell 6y ago
> a massive net positive on the eco-friendly front Isn't wireless charging a big step backwards with respect to power efficiency? With the millions of phones they sell and the fact that every one of them is charged daily, are the losses due to Apples new charging scheme insignificant?
- selectodude 6y ago
  If a MagSafe charger can charge at 15W using a 20W Apple charger, that's a 75 percent charge efficiency. The charger itself is about 80 percent efficient converting from the wall, so the whole thing is about 60 percent efficient. An iPhone 12 has a 15 wh battery, so you need about 25 wh to charge the battery fully vs 19 wh. So the losses for 17,000 full charges using MagSafe over a regular cable would equal the charge in a 100kwh Tesla Model S. ETA: the total charging loss from ten million iPhones charging 0-100 percent via MagSafe every day for a year would be 21,505 teslas.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    Your numbers are a bit high, wired chargers have become more efficient and barely waste any energy, see here: (14wh spent to charge a 13wh battery) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309917872_Improving_wireless_charging_energy_efficiency_of_mobile_phones_Analysis_of_key_practices https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309917872_Improving... The last bit is also wrong, 6wh * 10M = 600 Teslas. You can also read as “600 Teslas can provide phone charging for ten million people for an entire year”, take it as you wish... Your fridge can easily use 100kWh a month. You’ll save far more energy by closing the door a couple seconds early every time you open it. Phone charging is a drop in the bucket.
- jiofih 6y ago
  Wired chargers are 85%-90% efficient, Qi is somewhat between 75-85%. If you live in a country powered by green energy it shouldn’t be a concern :)
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago

chrisseaton 6y ago

Why do you want a USB-A charging cable in 2020? My laptops don't have that anymore, and I don't even have recent laptops. Like most people I know would have to to use a dongle. No thanks. Move as quickly as possible to USB-C, please Apple, and no need for charging bricks anymore. > it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are trying really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one This is cynical.

oarsinsync 6y ago
> > it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are trying really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one > This is cynical. The iPhone SE launched with earbuds and a plug. It no longer ships with them. The retail price hasn't changed. It can be good for the environment and a cost-cutting measure. Another commenter has noted that by making the box about half as thick, that doubles the number of units that can fit in a container. That's a huge saving for Apple. And yet the iPhone SE still retails at the same price despite now including less.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Maybe prices for materials or manufacturing or handling went up? Maybe they want to make some more profit this year for their workers and shareholders? Times are hard. Why is any of this your business? Either the price works for you or it doesn't. There's no moral component to this. You aren't entitled to low costs.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    > Why is any of this your business? Because I am the person paying for the thing?
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      But why do you care what their costs are? What will you do with that information? Either the product is worth it for what you need or it isn’t.

pilsetnieks 6y ago

For some reason, and I really cannot fathom why, a lot of people seem to think they changed charging options. They didn't. They added a new, optional one. Everything that used to charge an iPhone 11 will still charge an iPhone 12. I'm even willing to bet money on the fact that the original 30-pin connector (via an adapter) will charge the new phones. An iPod dock from 2001 would probably charge these phones.

sambe 6y ago

The cables die all the time! (depending on how much exposed innards you are comfortable with). They last longer when other family members are not using them but even my exclusive, careful use of one that only sits by my bed has pulled itself apart. The article is a bit of a strawman but I think it's inexcusable to be charging nearly twice the price of the charger for a 2m cable that disintegrates after a year or two. Especially when - as you say - they've changed the one in the box backwards-incompatibly (and it's 1m too).