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Can you prove that conscious is an emergent property of the bio-chemical brain? If you can, there is a sweet noble waiting for you. Otherwise it’s speculation o

Can you prove that conscious is an emergent property of the bio-chemical brain? If you can, there is a sweet noble waiting for you. Otherwise it’s speculation on your part.

abellerose 6y ago
Nobody has proven consciousness is even real. It’s like people assuming they have free will.
- sixothree 6y ago
  Unless atoms have free will then everything that will be has always been, right?
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    Really? "Will be" and "has been" presume time. If you admit time, then no. If you don't admit time, then the statement is meaningless.
- kozd 6y ago
  You have direct access to your own subjective experience. Do you deny that it is like something to be you?
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    Neither sentence means anything at all.
    - kordlessagain 6y ago
      You probably have image recall. Some people have audio recall. The recall events can contain imagery, moving imagery, sounds, speech, thoughts during event. They may be historic recordings/memory, creative "visualizations" or a hybrid. Some people can insert objects into their version of reality. Dots on walls. Boxes on tables. Your internally perceived reality is a "visualized+ object" that is similar to a visual and auditory recall of a historic event, or a future event "imagined". That object includes body impressions, smell, taste, etc. Hunger. Pain. Impatience in understanding the nature of consciousness. Etc. All of that is built from sense impressions. Buddhists call these "aggregates". The internal model of reality is an aggregate object which is refreshed from senses. While it looks very close to what everyone else sees inside, it is very individualistic to the person experiencing it and distinctly different from the various wavelengths of light and sound bouncing around in various material configurations which are then sampled by imperfect sensors. Would it be surprising to learn that not everyone's world model is complete, especially when attention is not being held on it? See "basketball gorilla attention" on Google. Yet, we all take it for granted so much that we forget we do it, sort of like the fact most people take for granted they can see their parents in their mind's eye but don't ever bother wondering how it is they can actually see an image representation of something without it being processed through a sense organ. It shouldn't come to anyone's surprise that reality is hallucinated into being and we experience that hallucination inside alone and outside together. If you stop hallucinating it, you lose consciousness. Dreams.
      - abellerose 6y ago
        None of what you wrote means anything for the question.
        kordlessagain 6y ago
        You didn't ask a question, nor contribute an answer, yet presume to reply with a judgment which is an opinion devoid of basis. Typical downvoter mentality.
ncmncm 6y ago
A sweet Nobel for demonstrating that people have experiences, despite being made out of base matter? People do have experiences, and are made out of matter. QED. I will expect your nomination.
- namero999 6y ago
  Firefighters are always present where there is a fire. Therefore, firefighters are those who lights up the fires.
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    A little bit of awareness of cause and effect goes a long way. If your speech center is damaged, your speech is impaired. If your audio processing center is damaged, your hearing is impaired. If your visual cortex is damaged, your vision is impaired. If your hippocampus is damaged, memory formation is impaired. If your frontal lobes are damaged, your judgement is impaired. If your cerebellum is damaged, physical coordination is impaired. If your reasoning ability is damaged, you believe in woo.
    - namero999 6y ago
      Correlation does not mean causation, and I am baffled that this needs be repeated here on this forum over and over again. If you throw a bottle into the television, are you effectively convinced that you have just disrupted the broadcast signal or do you entertain the possibility that you have simply messed up enough the proxy by which you were registering the signal? This is not woo. This is intellectual honesty. You seem skeptic and rational judging by what you write. Go all the way. We simply don't know that brain causes consciousness. We just don't, and I'm the first not happy about the possibility that it may not be the case, but I must accept rationally that there's all kind of holes in the brain-causes-consciousness narrative. By that account, for instance, every reduction in brain activity should correspond to a reduction of consciousness. Well, this is not the case, see for instance Carhart-Harris et al 2012, 2016 and many others more recently. Moreover, NDEs reports demonstrate enormous level of conscious experience in the absence of any brain activity. There's no space where to fit this empirical evidences in the causal framework. Moreover, to believe in the fairy tale of physicalism implies accepting that the building blocks of such worldview (fundamental particles) pop up into existence out of thin air, that the universe is made mostly of "dark energy", and that experiential properties "emerge" from unconscious matter... is this the kind of woo you were referring to when you mentioned damaged reasoning ability?

Can you prove that conscious is an emergent property of the bio-chemical brain? If you can, there is a sweet noble waiting for you. Otherwise it’s speculation on your part.

abellerose 6y ago

Nobody has proven consciousness is even real. It’s like people assuming they have free will.

sixothree 6y ago
Unless atoms have free will then everything that will be has always been, right?
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Really? "Will be" and "has been" presume time. If you admit time, then no. If you don't admit time, then the statement is meaningless.
kozd 6y ago
You have direct access to your own subjective experience. Do you deny that it is like something to be you?
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Neither sentence means anything at all.
  - kordlessagain 6y ago
    You probably have image recall. Some people have audio recall. The recall events can contain imagery, moving imagery, sounds, speech, thoughts during event. They may be historic recordings/memory, creative "visualizations" or a hybrid. Some people can insert objects into their version of reality. Dots on walls. Boxes on tables. Your internally perceived reality is a "visualized+ object" that is similar to a visual and auditory recall of a historic event, or a future event "imagined". That object includes body impressions, smell, taste, etc. Hunger. Pain. Impatience in understanding the nature of consciousness. Etc. All of that is built from sense impressions. Buddhists call these "aggregates". The internal model of reality is an aggregate object which is refreshed from senses. While it looks very close to what everyone else sees inside, it is very individualistic to the person experiencing it and distinctly different from the various wavelengths of light and sound bouncing around in various material configurations which are then sampled by imperfect sensors. Would it be surprising to learn that not everyone's world model is complete, especially when attention is not being held on it? See "basketball gorilla attention" on Google. Yet, we all take it for granted so much that we forget we do it, sort of like the fact most people take for granted they can see their parents in their mind's eye but don't ever bother wondering how it is they can actually see an image representation of something without it being processed through a sense organ. It shouldn't come to anyone's surprise that reality is hallucinated into being and we experience that hallucination inside alone and outside together. If you stop hallucinating it, you lose consciousness. Dreams.
    - abellerose 6y ago
      None of what you wrote means anything for the question.
      - kordlessagain 6y ago
        You didn't ask a question, nor contribute an answer, yet presume to reply with a judgment which is an opinion devoid of basis. Typical downvoter mentality.

ncmncm 6y ago

A sweet Nobel for demonstrating that people have experiences, despite being made out of base matter? People do have experiences, and are made out of matter. QED. I will expect your nomination.

namero999 6y ago
Firefighters are always present where there is a fire. Therefore, firefighters are those who lights up the fires.
- ncmncm 6y ago
  A little bit of awareness of cause and effect goes a long way. If your speech center is damaged, your speech is impaired. If your audio processing center is damaged, your hearing is impaired. If your visual cortex is damaged, your vision is impaired. If your hippocampus is damaged, memory formation is impaired. If your frontal lobes are damaged, your judgement is impaired. If your cerebellum is damaged, physical coordination is impaired. If your reasoning ability is damaged, you believe in woo.
  - namero999 6y ago
    Correlation does not mean causation, and I am baffled that this needs be repeated here on this forum over and over again. If you throw a bottle into the television, are you effectively convinced that you have just disrupted the broadcast signal or do you entertain the possibility that you have simply messed up enough the proxy by which you were registering the signal? This is not woo. This is intellectual honesty. You seem skeptic and rational judging by what you write. Go all the way. We simply don't know that brain causes consciousness. We just don't, and I'm the first not happy about the possibility that it may not be the case, but I must accept rationally that there's all kind of holes in the brain-causes-consciousness narrative. By that account, for instance, every reduction in brain activity should correspond to a reduction of consciousness. Well, this is not the case, see for instance Carhart-Harris et al 2012, 2016 and many others more recently. Moreover, NDEs reports demonstrate enormous level of conscious experience in the absence of any brain activity. There's no space where to fit this empirical evidences in the causal framework. Moreover, to believe in the fairy tale of physicalism implies accepting that the building blocks of such worldview (fundamental particles) pop up into existence out of thin air, that the universe is made mostly of "dark energy", and that experiential properties "emerge" from unconscious matter... is this the kind of woo you were referring to when you mentioned damaged reasoning ability?