7 ms·

This is not an IPO by a private company. This a wholly owned subsidiary of a government, just like Saudi Aramco. Jack Ma is a high ranking CCP member with gover

This is not an IPO by a private company. This a wholly owned subsidiary of a government, just like Saudi Aramco. Jack Ma is a high ranking CCP member with government money, not a private businessman: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767

peacefulhat 6y ago
You've fallen for propaganda
- bofadeez 6y ago
  You've fallen for propaganda. Read and learn: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767
  - peacefulhat 6y ago
    Ok, I read it. At no point does it say Alibaba is owned by the Chinese government. Jack Ma's not even the CEO anymore so dunno what you think this proves.
    - bofadeez 6y ago
      Okay, I guess you need a reading list to understand the implications: 1. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/07/we-cant-tell-if-chinese-firms-work-for-the-party/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/07/we-cant-tell-if-chinese... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business-xi-jinping-communist-party-state-private-enterprise-huawei https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business... 3. https://justthenews.com/world/asia/made-china-owned-china-20-deals-show-how-china-gobbling-us-assets https://justthenews.com/world/asia/made-china-owned-china-20... 4. https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-the-role-of-chinese-communist-party-committees/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-th... This took me 1 minute to assemble. There's a lot more...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
tanilama 6y ago
And..? It doesn't IPO in Western countries anyway.
- bofadeez 6y ago
  And nothing. I agree with you that it's not a controversial thing to say.
  - tanilama 6y ago
    Financial institutions are semi governmental branches in most countries. Jack Ma also admitted if the Chinese government demands, he would handle Ant's control back to the government. This is also the reason I believe Ant didn't plan to go to oversea for IPO in the first place, regardless of the political climate in US. It needs the buying from Chinese government, so the CCP. Frankly speaking, in a country such like China where capital is strictly controlled, Ant's existence itself is pretty significant.
paxys 6y ago
So Jack Ma being one of 88 million communist party members in China means his company is fully owned by the Chinese government? What are you smoking?
cepp 6y ago
1) Jack Ma is neither the CEO nor the majority shareholder in Ant. [1] 2) Jack is one of > 91.2M party members in China. As are most high-ranking managers and professionals, it's simply a fact of life. [2] Nothing about 1 or 2 makes Alibaba Group or Ant a state owned enterprise (SOE) more than any other company in China. Everything in the world need _not_ be late stage capitalist democracy. There are plenty of ways to attain success and happiness. Lastly, Ant isn't even IPOing in the West. If you disagree then vote with your wallet (or don't). [1]: https://www.alibabagroup.com/en/ir/pdf/160614/12.pdf https://www.alibabagroup.com/en/ir/pdf/160614/12.pdf [2]: https://www.statista.com/topics/1247/chinese-communist-party/ https://www.statista.com/topics/1247/chinese-communist-party...
- fossuser 6y ago
  I'm more skeptical after seeing this: https://youtu.be/f3lUEnMaiAU https://youtu.be/f3lUEnMaiAU I would have expected being a party member to just be the default in order for anyone to do anything of substance in China, but he comes across extremely poorly in that interview. So poorly, that I find it more likely that the companies are being propped up/operated by the government than someone like him could successfully build/run them. Maybe I'm indexing too much on that, but watch it for yourself, definitely weird.
  - cepp 6y ago
    I worked at Ali and have seen 马云 speak in person. I get that it seems a bit weird because he's _not_ technical, nor particularly enlightened in any area, but the success of the company is in part due to his excellence as a manager. It's part of the reason Ali wasn't, until very recently, in gaming because he wanted to focus the company and to abide by a certain set of principles. To your second point: doing business in China is partially owed to the niche that the government carves for you. Look at the debacle of Ofo vs Mobike. You need to grow at all costs until you can overtake competition then you're protected.
    - fossuser 6y ago
      I guess I'm skeptical that you can be an excellent manager with that level of inability to discuss anything of depth. The excellent managers I've interacted with (especially at the exec level) have always been really sharp and had a pretty deep understanding of the stack even if they're not themselves programmers. The ones that don't or can't are usually bad. > doing business in China is partially owed to the niche that the government carves for you...You need to grow at all costs until you can overtake competition then you're protected. I suspect this protection is what allows people to succeed that would otherwise fail in a real competition. In that interview he comes across like an empty suit/figurehead. It wasn't a huge surprise to me that they got rid of him.

peacefulhat 6y ago

You've fallen for propaganda

bofadeez 6y ago
You've fallen for propaganda. Read and learn: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767
- peacefulhat 6y ago
  Ok, I read it. At no point does it say Alibaba is owned by the Chinese government. Jack Ma's not even the CEO anymore so dunno what you think this proves.
  - bofadeez 6y ago
    Okay, I guess you need a reading list to understand the implications: 1. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/07/we-cant-tell-if-chinese-firms-work-for-the-party/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/07/we-cant-tell-if-chinese... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business-xi-jinping-communist-party-state-private-enterprise-huawei https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business... 3. https://justthenews.com/world/asia/made-china-owned-china-20-deals-show-how-china-gobbling-us-assets https://justthenews.com/world/asia/made-china-owned-china-20... 4. https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-the-role-of-chinese-communist-party-committees/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-th... This took me 1 minute to assemble. There's a lot more...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

tanilama 6y ago

And..? It doesn't IPO in Western countries anyway.

bofadeez 6y ago
And nothing. I agree with you that it's not a controversial thing to say.
- tanilama 6y ago
  Financial institutions are semi governmental branches in most countries. Jack Ma also admitted if the Chinese government demands, he would handle Ant's control back to the government. This is also the reason I believe Ant didn't plan to go to oversea for IPO in the first place, regardless of the political climate in US. It needs the buying from Chinese government, so the CCP. Frankly speaking, in a country such like China where capital is strictly controlled, Ant's existence itself is pretty significant.

paxys 6y ago

So Jack Ma being one of 88 million communist party members in China means his company is fully owned by the Chinese government? What are you smoking?

cepp 6y ago

1) Jack Ma is neither the CEO nor the majority shareholder in Ant. [1] 2) Jack is one of > 91.2M party members in China. As are most high-ranking managers and professionals, it's simply a fact of life. [2] Nothing about 1 or 2 makes Alibaba Group or Ant a state owned enterprise (SOE) more than any other company in China. Everything in the world need _not_ be late stage capitalist democracy. There are plenty of ways to attain success and happiness. Lastly, Ant isn't even IPOing in the West. If you disagree then vote with your wallet (or don't). [1]: https://www.alibabagroup.com/en/ir/pdf/160614/12.pdf https://www.alibabagroup.com/en/ir/pdf/160614/12.pdf [2]: https://www.statista.com/topics/1247/chinese-communist-party/ https://www.statista.com/topics/1247/chinese-communist-party...

fossuser 6y ago
I'm more skeptical after seeing this: https://youtu.be/f3lUEnMaiAU https://youtu.be/f3lUEnMaiAU I would have expected being a party member to just be the default in order for anyone to do anything of substance in China, but he comes across extremely poorly in that interview. So poorly, that I find it more likely that the companies are being propped up/operated by the government than someone like him could successfully build/run them. Maybe I'm indexing too much on that, but watch it for yourself, definitely weird.
- cepp 6y ago
  I worked at Ali and have seen 马云 speak in person. I get that it seems a bit weird because he's _not_ technical, nor particularly enlightened in any area, but the success of the company is in part due to his excellence as a manager. It's part of the reason Ali wasn't, until very recently, in gaming because he wanted to focus the company and to abide by a certain set of principles. To your second point: doing business in China is partially owed to the niche that the government carves for you. Look at the debacle of Ofo vs Mobike. You need to grow at all costs until you can overtake competition then you're protected.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    I guess I'm skeptical that you can be an excellent manager with that level of inability to discuss anything of depth. The excellent managers I've interacted with (especially at the exec level) have always been really sharp and had a pretty deep understanding of the stack even if they're not themselves programmers. The ones that don't or can't are usually bad. > doing business in China is partially owed to the niche that the government carves for you...You need to grow at all costs until you can overtake competition then you're protected. I suspect this protection is what allows people to succeed that would otherwise fail in a real competition. In that interview he comes across like an empty suit/figurehead. It wasn't a huge surprise to me that they got rid of him.