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I understand this is a Vercel framework and probably a great distribution channel for new business and increasing overall revenue. But, I'm a bit disappointed t

I understand this is a Vercel framework and probably a great distribution channel for new business and increasing overall revenue. But, I'm a bit disappointed the "next" version is more about Vercel's own internal business agenda. Promoted as amazing "DX" is not really true. It had a better DX compared to the other tools, that's why it grew so popular, but not seeing anything real DX related in version "10". Other tools are starting to do things a bit better. Analytics, great idea, is a huge disappointment. It's just a Vercel thing and not NextJS, not to mention a "pro/enterprise" paid feature, not cheap either. A few days ago I saw the YT videos of "future of Svelte" and that video was really about "DX" with no non-sense no BS that just focused on the real next evolution on web/app dev. That DX really resonated with me. My opinion, I'm not sold on NextJS 10, the "commercial" move kind of turned me off and scares me of platform lock-in, but I'm getting more and more interested into Svelte (v4?) and I'm seriously looking to switch to it from NextJS. Note: "DX" stands for "Developer eXperience", meaning how joyful, easy it is to get started with the tool and feeling productive.

suyash 6y ago
Good point it would have helped if the clearly mention what's in the open source vs what's paid service tied to Vercel. Alsi I'd like a point by point comparison with Google Analytics for their analytics offering, is that in open source?
erokar 6y ago
I feel the same way. We've switched from React to Svelte at work. Going back to React would be a step backwards for us, so much feels needlessly overengineered with awkward APIs. React was a great improvement on Angular, but luckily things are still moving forward.
- fasteo 6y ago
  Which UI component library, if any, do you use with Svelte ?
  - bamazizi 6y ago
    Technically any static ui library can easily be turned into reactive components in any of the frameworks. I personally use & recommend Tailwind css, you still need to design/build your UI elements and components but Tailwind helps you speed it up.
  - erokar 6y ago
    UI component libraries for Svelte are a little lacking in maturity in my experience. I would recommend including a CSS library such as Bootstrap or Materialize. Tailwind is also popular, but not my cup of tea.
    - auggierose 6y ago
      So, React is backwards, but you are using Bootstrap instead? Lol. Webdevs at their best.
      - subsection1h 6y ago
        There are good alternatives to React that are as actively developed. There don't seem to be good alternatives to Bootstrap that are nearly as actively developed (excluding CSS utility class libraries like Tailwind). My team recently evaluated 30-40 CSS frameworks to use with a custom component library, and we were surprised when Bootstrap was the clear winner. Other CSS frameworks have gotten buzz over the years, and we assumed something new and shiny would come out on top, but when we evaluated all of them, we saw sporadic commits, many unresolved issues (e.g., see Bulma issue 3074), small bus factors, inadequate support for keyboard navigation, and other issues. So using Bootstrap with a newer alternative to React is valid. (Though, we're using Bootstrap with Next.js.)
      - erokar 6y ago
        By all means, stick to your React or Java backend or whatever it is you do if that's where you feel most comfortable. No need to feel so threatened by new alternatives.
  - gedy 6y ago
- dfrsol 6y ago
  How are y'all testing your svelte apps/components? Jest+Testing Lib seems to have issues calculating code coverage and there are few quirks like having to do work arounds to test slots that prevent me from totally switching over.
  - erokar 6y ago
    Our test coverage of the Svelte apps is meagre so far to be honest.
  - rsyring 6y ago
    Their response to "How do I test Svelte apps?" "We don't have a good answer for that yet, but it is a priority." I was interested in Svelte until I read this. When they have a good answer, I'll be interested again. https://svelte.dev/faq#how-do-i-test-svelte-apps https://svelte.dev/faq#how-do-i-test-svelte-apps
    - Existenceblinks 6y ago
      The solution to this, I believe, is making template a function: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25023551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25023551
- tekkk 6y ago
  Well, this sounds a bit typical JS dev talk. React isn't all that terrible, it's actually quite good and battle-proven. It has great libraries, many devs are familiar with it and if you know it well you can be pretty damn productive with it. Not to say Svelte doesn't have great innovative features, but I myself don't still feel that tempted to jump into Svelte. What some of us don't like, is the infamous JS churn where libraries are changed every year because "this new one is better".
  - erokar 6y ago
    Some of us are attracted to JS dev because of the rapid evolution and change. React is well-tested and mature, I'm simply stating that for me personally going back to it would be frustrating after developing in Svelte.
  - earthboundkid 6y ago
    React is extremely bloated. I don’t think it can justify its weight on content pages. If all you need are some show hide buttons and a CSS animation, it’s way too heavy. That’s a pretty good reason to look at other tools.
    - jholman 6y ago
      If all you need are some show hide buttons and a CSS animation, do the whole thing in four or five lines of vanilla JS in an inline script tag. You're right that React is the wrong tool for the job, but so is Svelte and so is everything else discussed in this thread.
neves 6y ago
What is DX? New jargon?
- cfors 6y ago
  Presumably Developer Experience
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kipple 6y ago
  It's hard to search for, but it appears to mean "Developer Experience" — https://medium.com/@koba04/performance-and-dx-in-frontend-486b942dd33c https://medium.com/@koba04/performance-and-dx-in-frontend-48...
- scns 6y ago
  Developer eXperience
- azemetre 6y ago
  If UX is user experience, the user flows of a product/application and how people generally feel about using/interacting with it. The DX is the developer experience. It follows a similar idea. How do you feel about using git? What about Visual Studio Code versus neovim? How do you like using Elm? What don't you like about. Think about all the libraries or frameworks you use. Some of them clearly offer a better experience than others, these are the types of things that affect the DX. Take documentation for example, a piece of tech (whether it be an IDE, library, or CLT) with proper documentation full of examples, usage, and recipes is extremely nice. I would favor tech that has better documentation over others, documentation is just one part of the DX. Not the only part, but hopefully you can start to see what can increase or decrease the DX.
  - neves 6y ago
    Thanks for the explanation, but it is really unnecessary. Developers are the users for developer tools. UX fits perfectly nice.
mindrun 6y ago
Whenever the Next.js + Vercel combo gains a new feature, Vercel ensures that it's available in standalone Next.js too – even when deployed to other providers. That's true for all the features mentioned in the Next.js 10 blog post: Image optimization, Internationalization, but also Analytics. Since you mentioned the latter: Did you notice that we wrote a detailed documentation page about how to report those metrics to any service of your choice? https://nextjs.org/docs/advanced-features/measuring-performance https://nextjs.org/docs/advanced-features/measuring-performa... Sure, there's obviously a whole UI piece to this as well – but since you interact with Next.js programmatically and there's a quite sophisticated data storage that needs to back all of this as well, Vercel optionally provides you with a pre-built solution. But again, to be clear: If you want to use Analytics + Next.js elsewhere, Next.js supports reporting them natively – even if not hosted on Vercel.
- citruspi 6y ago
  > Did you notice that we wrote a detailed documentation page about how to report those metrics to any service of your choice? Perhaps you should link that on the Analytics[0] page instead of directing users to contact the sales team for more information on non-Vercel deployments. [0] https://nextjs.org/analytics https://nextjs.org/analytics
  - mindrun 6y ago
    Great suggestion! We'll add a link right after the conference.
- wdb 6y ago
  Yes, but that reporting was already part of 9.5?
yawnxyz 6y ago
I'm rewriting a bunch of my Vue components into Svelte, and turning my Nuxt (which were previously React/Next) projects into Sapper, and it's a crazy easy process. My Svelte codebase is tiny compared to my Vue codebase. I'm slightly "worried" about Sapper not being at v1.0 yet but... it's been working great for my MVPs
- Xevi 6y ago
  I'm pretty out of the loop when it comes to Svelte/Sapper. I've looked at it, but never used it. However I did recently spot that they're already working on a successor to Sapper called Svelte Kit. So maybe that's why Sapper isn't at 1.0, and maybe never will be. https://github.com/sveltejs/sapper/issues/1429 https://github.com/sveltejs/sapper/issues/1429
- atom_arranger 6y ago
  Relatively recent news, Sapper is not getting a 1.0.0. Svelte is going in a different direction in the future. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfdtmcZ4d0&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfdtmcZ4d0&t=3s
  - vosper 6y ago
    I'm surprised to hear this - more details would be appreciated. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll come back this afternoon and TL;DR the 22 minute video linked here.
  - svieira 6y ago
    TL;DW - parts of Sapper may be in a future version of Svelte, but looking to add support for mixed static and dynamic pages and improving development speed to change by using Snowpack.
kylemh 6y ago
Seems very disingenuous. The only thing on the list that's related to Vercel is the analytics platform. Even that is clearly listed as something you can leverage via your own provider.
nsonha 6y ago
You are looking at it from the point of view of an app developer, not that nextjs can't do app but a lot of its users are e-commerce businesses
nikolay 6y ago
I also am departing from Next.js as the future is now clear - upselling their commercial stuff.
Existenceblinks 6y ago
Svelte is the lead of virtualdom less `ui=f(data)` language/framework. It's the only one you can mutation DOM without its program being corrupted (though not sure if you try hard, it could be) There is only 1 thing that would make me switch from Elm to Svelte is template as a function. Make it compose like functions! So that you can have as many as functions you want. With current Svelte, these functions are bunch of files .. unfortunately.

suyash 6y ago

Good point it would have helped if the clearly mention what's in the open source vs what's paid service tied to Vercel. Alsi I'd like a point by point comparison with Google Analytics for their analytics offering, is that in open source?

erokar 6y ago

I feel the same way. We've switched from React to Svelte at work. Going back to React would be a step backwards for us, so much feels needlessly overengineered with awkward APIs. React was a great improvement on Angular, but luckily things are still moving forward.

fasteo 6y ago
Which UI component library, if any, do you use with Svelte ?
- bamazizi 6y ago
  Technically any static ui library can easily be turned into reactive components in any of the frameworks. I personally use & recommend Tailwind css, you still need to design/build your UI elements and components but Tailwind helps you speed it up.
- erokar 6y ago
  UI component libraries for Svelte are a little lacking in maturity in my experience. I would recommend including a CSS library such as Bootstrap or Materialize. Tailwind is also popular, but not my cup of tea.
  - auggierose 6y ago
    So, React is backwards, but you are using Bootstrap instead? Lol. Webdevs at their best.
    - subsection1h 6y ago
      There are good alternatives to React that are as actively developed. There don't seem to be good alternatives to Bootstrap that are nearly as actively developed (excluding CSS utility class libraries like Tailwind). My team recently evaluated 30-40 CSS frameworks to use with a custom component library, and we were surprised when Bootstrap was the clear winner. Other CSS frameworks have gotten buzz over the years, and we assumed something new and shiny would come out on top, but when we evaluated all of them, we saw sporadic commits, many unresolved issues (e.g., see Bulma issue 3074), small bus factors, inadequate support for keyboard navigation, and other issues. So using Bootstrap with a newer alternative to React is valid. (Though, we're using Bootstrap with Next.js.)
    - erokar 6y ago
      By all means, stick to your React or Java backend or whatever it is you do if that's where you feel most comfortable. No need to feel so threatened by new alternatives.
- gedy 6y ago
dfrsol 6y ago
How are y'all testing your svelte apps/components? Jest+Testing Lib seems to have issues calculating code coverage and there are few quirks like having to do work arounds to test slots that prevent me from totally switching over.
- erokar 6y ago
  Our test coverage of the Svelte apps is meagre so far to be honest.
- rsyring 6y ago
  Their response to "How do I test Svelte apps?" "We don't have a good answer for that yet, but it is a priority." I was interested in Svelte until I read this. When they have a good answer, I'll be interested again. https://svelte.dev/faq#how-do-i-test-svelte-apps https://svelte.dev/faq#how-do-i-test-svelte-apps
  - Existenceblinks 6y ago
    The solution to this, I believe, is making template a function: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25023551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25023551
tekkk 6y ago
Well, this sounds a bit typical JS dev talk. React isn't all that terrible, it's actually quite good and battle-proven. It has great libraries, many devs are familiar with it and if you know it well you can be pretty damn productive with it. Not to say Svelte doesn't have great innovative features, but I myself don't still feel that tempted to jump into Svelte. What some of us don't like, is the infamous JS churn where libraries are changed every year because "this new one is better".
- erokar 6y ago
  Some of us are attracted to JS dev because of the rapid evolution and change. React is well-tested and mature, I'm simply stating that for me personally going back to it would be frustrating after developing in Svelte.
- earthboundkid 6y ago
  React is extremely bloated. I don’t think it can justify its weight on content pages. If all you need are some show hide buttons and a CSS animation, it’s way too heavy. That’s a pretty good reason to look at other tools.
  - jholman 6y ago
    If all you need are some show hide buttons and a CSS animation, do the whole thing in four or five lines of vanilla JS in an inline script tag. You're right that React is the wrong tool for the job, but so is Svelte and so is everything else discussed in this thread.

neves 6y ago

What is DX? New jargon?

cfors 6y ago
Presumably Developer Experience
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kipple 6y ago
It's hard to search for, but it appears to mean "Developer Experience" — https://medium.com/@koba04/performance-and-dx-in-frontend-486b942dd33c https://medium.com/@koba04/performance-and-dx-in-frontend-48...
scns 6y ago
Developer eXperience
azemetre 6y ago
If UX is user experience, the user flows of a product/application and how people generally feel about using/interacting with it. The DX is the developer experience. It follows a similar idea. How do you feel about using git? What about Visual Studio Code versus neovim? How do you like using Elm? What don't you like about. Think about all the libraries or frameworks you use. Some of them clearly offer a better experience than others, these are the types of things that affect the DX. Take documentation for example, a piece of tech (whether it be an IDE, library, or CLT) with proper documentation full of examples, usage, and recipes is extremely nice. I would favor tech that has better documentation over others, documentation is just one part of the DX. Not the only part, but hopefully you can start to see what can increase or decrease the DX.
- neves 6y ago
  Thanks for the explanation, but it is really unnecessary. Developers are the users for developer tools. UX fits perfectly nice.

mindrun 6y ago

Whenever the Next.js + Vercel combo gains a new feature, Vercel ensures that it's available in standalone Next.js too – even when deployed to other providers. That's true for all the features mentioned in the Next.js 10 blog post: Image optimization, Internationalization, but also Analytics. Since you mentioned the latter: Did you notice that we wrote a detailed documentation page about how to report those metrics to any service of your choice? https://nextjs.org/docs/advanced-features/measuring-performance https://nextjs.org/docs/advanced-features/measuring-performa... Sure, there's obviously a whole UI piece to this as well – but since you interact with Next.js programmatically and there's a quite sophisticated data storage that needs to back all of this as well, Vercel optionally provides you with a pre-built solution. But again, to be clear: If you want to use Analytics + Next.js elsewhere, Next.js supports reporting them natively – even if not hosted on Vercel.

citruspi 6y ago
> Did you notice that we wrote a detailed documentation page about how to report those metrics to any service of your choice? Perhaps you should link that on the Analytics[0] page instead of directing users to contact the sales team for more information on non-Vercel deployments. [0] https://nextjs.org/analytics https://nextjs.org/analytics
- mindrun 6y ago
  Great suggestion! We'll add a link right after the conference.
wdb 6y ago
Yes, but that reporting was already part of 9.5?

yawnxyz 6y ago

I'm rewriting a bunch of my Vue components into Svelte, and turning my Nuxt (which were previously React/Next) projects into Sapper, and it's a crazy easy process. My Svelte codebase is tiny compared to my Vue codebase. I'm slightly "worried" about Sapper not being at v1.0 yet but... it's been working great for my MVPs

Xevi 6y ago
I'm pretty out of the loop when it comes to Svelte/Sapper. I've looked at it, but never used it. However I did recently spot that they're already working on a successor to Sapper called Svelte Kit. So maybe that's why Sapper isn't at 1.0, and maybe never will be. https://github.com/sveltejs/sapper/issues/1429 https://github.com/sveltejs/sapper/issues/1429
atom_arranger 6y ago
Relatively recent news, Sapper is not getting a 1.0.0. Svelte is going in a different direction in the future. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfdtmcZ4d0&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfdtmcZ4d0&t=3s
- vosper 6y ago
  I'm surprised to hear this - more details would be appreciated. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll come back this afternoon and TL;DR the 22 minute video linked here.
- svieira 6y ago
  TL;DW - parts of Sapper may be in a future version of Svelte, but looking to add support for mixed static and dynamic pages and improving development speed to change by using Snowpack.

kylemh 6y ago

Seems very disingenuous. The only thing on the list that's related to Vercel is the analytics platform. Even that is clearly listed as something you can leverage via your own provider.

nsonha 6y ago

You are looking at it from the point of view of an app developer, not that nextjs can't do app but a lot of its users are e-commerce businesses

nikolay 6y ago

I also am departing from Next.js as the future is now clear - upselling their commercial stuff.

Existenceblinks 6y ago

Svelte is the lead of virtualdom less `ui=f(data)` language/framework. It's the only one you can mutation DOM without its program being corrupted (though not sure if you try hard, it could be) There is only 1 thing that would make me switch from Elm to Svelte is template as a function. Make it compose like functions! So that you can have as many as functions you want. With current Svelte, these functions are bunch of files .. unfortunately.