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Look up the “shocking rule” principle from Horowitz’s “What you do is who you are”. Sometimes you need to take a dramatic action to make it clear what your cul

Look up the “shocking rule” principle from Horowitz’s “What you do is who you are”. Sometimes you need to take a dramatic action to make it clear what your culture is (or what you want it to be). It’s perhaps unfair to one of those 6 who was hypothetically just being polite and pretending to laugh along. But you can bet the rest of the org got the message loud and clear. Sadly with entrenched -isms like sexism, it seems to require a drastic action like this to really make a change in org culture. It’s really hard to “make the company less sexist” if there is an entrenched bias among employees. And you may just need to fire a bunch of otherwise good people to get rid of it.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
> And you may just need to fire a bunch of otherwise good people to get rid of it. We're talking about bias here. While I don't disagree that it would get everyone to step in line firing people who did nothing wrong seems like a high level of collateral damage.
- morelisp 6y ago
  Not speaking up when such a comment is made is doing something wrong.
  - NeutronStar 6y ago
    Easy to say on an internet forum, harder to do when it could be your boss making a joke.
    - theptip 6y ago
      That's true, to be clear though, you could have raised it to HR without having to "be a hero" and challenge the group in public. Not to diminish the fact that even raising it to HR could be challenging in some orgs (e.g. see Susan Fowler's saga at Uber). And also worth noting that it's easier to find the confidence to report to HR in an org where the line has been clearly drawn by actions such as the dismissals that we're discussing -- that's the point of the "shocking rule" principle.
    - morelisp 6y ago
      I never said right was easy.
- theptip 6y ago
  > seems like a high level of collateral damage I do recommend you pick up the book and give it a read (it's great), as Horowitz does go into a lot of detail on when the "shocking rule" strategy is appropriate and the considerations. I won't do as good a job summarizing here but I'll try. It's true that this inflicts collateral damage. That's part of the point. The fact that you're willing to inflict collateral damage to preserve/enshrine a norm is shocking, and that demonstrates the commitment to that norm. You definitely should not play this card often (ideally never, but you should have it in your playbook). The action is shocking, and you'd expect many employees to be shocked. They will discuss the event because it's shocking, and so your decision will be well-known and the news will be self-perpetuating. (And maybe some will leave who don't think that it's a big deal to call women "bitches"; this is a good thing, you have made your cultural norms clearer, and employees who realize they are not a cultural fit will tend to self-select out at the margin.) Note you can use the "shocking rule" principle in non-ism enforcement too, e.g. "mishandled customer PII => instant fired", "plane crashed due to failures in the QA process that was your core responsibility => instant fired" or even Bezos's famous "All Amazon internal services will communcate over public APIs, if you don't do this you're fired". Not making any specific claims about whether these are good reasons, but just pointing out that whatever norm you want to enforce that are critical to the company's/org's survival, you can use this principle to fuel a dramatic culture shift. You don't get to play this card often though, so be sure that the shift is worth it.
antientropic 6y ago
Doesn't this just create a culture of fear? Where you can get fired instantly for a single, ill-considered remark? I would certainly never participate in any kind of socializing at such a company, since the consequences of a misstep would be so drastic.
- Ntrails 6y ago
  Every single business on the planet has a circumstance in which a single ill considered remark is cause for immediate dismissal. I can construct examples where nobody would expect the relevant parties not to be fired. eg calling the CEO a stupid [racially denigrating whatever] So the argument you're really making is about whether what they did was sufficient to pass the bar for "should be immediately fired". Because it wasn't that bad? Because a little casual comic sexism never hurt anyone?
- chowned 6y ago
  Um, I would rather work in a place where people are afraid of saying: "We don't need any bitches working here!"
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    Sure, but if your team lead says it, you're fired too.
    - morelisp 6y ago
      If my team lead would say it, I don't want to work for them.
      - koonsolo 6y ago
        Well, then make sure you don't end up both in the same new company ;). My point was to fire the offender, and not everyone else who might be involved. Innocent until proven guilty, you know. For me, I wouldn't want to work for a company that fires with collateral damage.
xbmcuser 6y ago
If that joke was made without rebuke by anyone in the group means it was a common occurrence. If it was your boss and you didn't notify hr still means you are okay with such a joke so. The decision to let go the whole group was the correct call. Lax enforcement of rules usually results in making rules worthless
- UnFleshedOne 6y ago
  So failure to report a digression is an equal digression. I'm looking forward to minimum report quotas and "report your coworker" special days.
  - KittenInABox 6y ago
    I think failure to report digressions of severe enough circumstances are digressions. Eg. calling people "bitches" much to laughter in the workplace isn't acceptable. If it ever got out to the media, a glassdoor review, etc. that the company did nothing to a whole department laughing and calling people "bitches" the company would be in major, expensive shit. Trying to take it further ("report days"?) seems like a slippery slope fallacy to me.
    - UnFleshedOne 6y ago
      I agree it isn't acceptable, and I agree there should be cases where reports should be mandatory. But I'd place that line far into the criminal realm.
  - iaw 6y ago
    When it's against a legally protected class and opens up the company to liability, it is rational to fire an employee for not reporting it. Safety violations are taken that seriously at some companies, anyone observing one that doesn't report it also gets fired. It depends on what type of culture of accountability the company wants.
- dylan604 6y ago
  what if they were waiting until Monday to make that report giving it the weekend to think on the best course of action rather than making a knee jerk reaction?

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

> And you may just need to fire a bunch of otherwise good people to get rid of it. We're talking about bias here. While I don't disagree that it would get everyone to step in line firing people who did nothing wrong seems like a high level of collateral damage.

morelisp 6y ago
Not speaking up when such a comment is made is doing something wrong.
- NeutronStar 6y ago
  Easy to say on an internet forum, harder to do when it could be your boss making a joke.
  - theptip 6y ago
    That's true, to be clear though, you could have raised it to HR without having to "be a hero" and challenge the group in public. Not to diminish the fact that even raising it to HR could be challenging in some orgs (e.g. see Susan Fowler's saga at Uber). And also worth noting that it's easier to find the confidence to report to HR in an org where the line has been clearly drawn by actions such as the dismissals that we're discussing -- that's the point of the "shocking rule" principle.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    I never said right was easy.
theptip 6y ago
> seems like a high level of collateral damage I do recommend you pick up the book and give it a read (it's great), as Horowitz does go into a lot of detail on when the "shocking rule" strategy is appropriate and the considerations. I won't do as good a job summarizing here but I'll try. It's true that this inflicts collateral damage. That's part of the point. The fact that you're willing to inflict collateral damage to preserve/enshrine a norm is shocking, and that demonstrates the commitment to that norm. You definitely should not play this card often (ideally never, but you should have it in your playbook). The action is shocking, and you'd expect many employees to be shocked. They will discuss the event because it's shocking, and so your decision will be well-known and the news will be self-perpetuating. (And maybe some will leave who don't think that it's a big deal to call women "bitches"; this is a good thing, you have made your cultural norms clearer, and employees who realize they are not a cultural fit will tend to self-select out at the margin.) Note you can use the "shocking rule" principle in non-ism enforcement too, e.g. "mishandled customer PII => instant fired", "plane crashed due to failures in the QA process that was your core responsibility => instant fired" or even Bezos's famous "All Amazon internal services will communcate over public APIs, if you don't do this you're fired". Not making any specific claims about whether these are good reasons, but just pointing out that whatever norm you want to enforce that are critical to the company's/org's survival, you can use this principle to fuel a dramatic culture shift. You don't get to play this card often though, so be sure that the shift is worth it.

antientropic 6y ago

Doesn't this just create a culture of fear? Where you can get fired instantly for a single, ill-considered remark? I would certainly never participate in any kind of socializing at such a company, since the consequences of a misstep would be so drastic.

Ntrails 6y ago
Every single business on the planet has a circumstance in which a single ill considered remark is cause for immediate dismissal. I can construct examples where nobody would expect the relevant parties not to be fired. eg calling the CEO a stupid [racially denigrating whatever] So the argument you're really making is about whether what they did was sufficient to pass the bar for "should be immediately fired". Because it wasn't that bad? Because a little casual comic sexism never hurt anyone?
chowned 6y ago
Um, I would rather work in a place where people are afraid of saying: "We don't need any bitches working here!"
- koonsolo 6y ago
  Sure, but if your team lead says it, you're fired too.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    If my team lead would say it, I don't want to work for them.
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      Well, then make sure you don't end up both in the same new company ;). My point was to fire the offender, and not everyone else who might be involved. Innocent until proven guilty, you know. For me, I wouldn't want to work for a company that fires with collateral damage.

xbmcuser 6y ago

If that joke was made without rebuke by anyone in the group means it was a common occurrence. If it was your boss and you didn't notify hr still means you are okay with such a joke so. The decision to let go the whole group was the correct call. Lax enforcement of rules usually results in making rules worthless

UnFleshedOne 6y ago
So failure to report a digression is an equal digression. I'm looking forward to minimum report quotas and "report your coworker" special days.
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  I think failure to report digressions of severe enough circumstances are digressions. Eg. calling people "bitches" much to laughter in the workplace isn't acceptable. If it ever got out to the media, a glassdoor review, etc. that the company did nothing to a whole department laughing and calling people "bitches" the company would be in major, expensive shit. Trying to take it further ("report days"?) seems like a slippery slope fallacy to me.
  - UnFleshedOne 6y ago
    I agree it isn't acceptable, and I agree there should be cases where reports should be mandatory. But I'd place that line far into the criminal realm.
- iaw 6y ago
  When it's against a legally protected class and opens up the company to liability, it is rational to fire an employee for not reporting it. Safety violations are taken that seriously at some companies, anyone observing one that doesn't report it also gets fired. It depends on what type of culture of accountability the company wants.
dylan604 6y ago
what if they were waiting until Monday to make that report giving it the weekend to think on the best course of action rather than making a knee jerk reaction?