5 ms·

> After the Slack incident was reported to HR, Verkada CEO Filip Kaliszan gave employees in the Slack channel a choice: leave the company or have their stock op

by Lammy 6y ago

> After the Slack incident was reported to HR, Verkada CEO Filip Kaliszan gave employees in the Slack channel a choice: leave the company or have their stock options reduced. Leave the company, or have slightly less of something already worth zero? What a “fuck you” non-response to those women.

0goel0 6y ago
This is objectively the wrong way to handle sexual harassment. It only benefits the company by reclaiming some of the options and the harassers who lose nothing (and hence learn nothing).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Agreed. Years ago when I worked at Unisys, it was reported to HR that upon leaving an interview at our Training department the candidate overheard "We don't need any bitches working here!" and general laughter. That was Friday. On Monday morning that Training department didn't exist. All 6 employees dismissed instantly; the department functions farmed out to different groups. Some of those employees had worked there for a decade. But at a startup 10 years later, after interviewing a recent graduate from the local college I asked our VP Engineering if she was a fit. He replied "Did you see the guys around her? If I hired her, we'd get nothing done around here!" I was appalled. He later became an executive at Carbonite.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  Not sure I understand this correct. Those 6 people got fired for laughing at an inappropriate joke? Was it proven they all laughed? I'd focus on the leader/troublemaker. My aunt once accused me of laughing at my grandmother's funeral. I don't remember, but I certainly meant to only be respectful at the funeral.
  - theptip 6y ago
    Look up the “shocking rule” principle from Horowitz’s “What you do is who you are”. Sometimes you need to take a dramatic action to make it clear what your culture is (or what you want it to be). It’s perhaps unfair to one of those 6 who was hypothetically just being polite and pretending to laugh along. But you can bet the rest of the org got the message loud and clear. Sadly with entrenched -isms like sexism, it seems to require a drastic action like this to really make a change in org culture. It’s really hard to “make the company less sexist” if there is an entrenched bias among employees. And you may just need to fire a bunch of otherwise good people to get rid of it.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      > And you may just need to fire a bunch of otherwise good people to get rid of it. We're talking about bias here. While I don't disagree that it would get everyone to step in line firing people who did nothing wrong seems like a high level of collateral damage.
      - morelisp 6y ago
        Not speaking up when such a comment is made is doing something wrong.
        NeutronStar 6y ago
        Easy to say on an internet forum, harder to do when it could be your boss making a joke.
        theptip 6y ago
        That's true, to be clear though, you could have raised it to HR without having to "be a hero" and challenge the group in public. Not to diminish the fact that even raising it to HR could be challenging in some orgs (e.g. see Susan Fowler's saga at Uber). And also worth noting that it's easier to find the confidence to report to HR in an org where the line has been clearly drawn by actions such as the dismissals that we're discussing -- that's the point of the "shocking rule" principle.
- jjones2 6y ago
  Fired for laughing? You didn't work at the funeral home or anything... Geez. Glad I never subscribed to PC culture!
  - zentiggr 6y ago
    Unless that comment was followed by a chorus of every other voice in the room calling the one out for an obviously completely inappropriate statement, yes, everyone who didn't push back is gone. A comment like that isn't remotely appropriate. If that's what you're willing to say off the cuff, how am I going to expect you to treat the women around you day to day? I don't want that future lawsuit, or at a minimum another complaint to HR to have to navigate. Bye. The door is likely to hit your sexist ass on the way out.
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      The fact someone supposedly laughs at a sexist joke or does not oppose a sexist joke doesn't mean they're sexist. Drawing such conclusion and firing those alleged laughers is like shooting with a cannon on a mosquito. The discussion isn't about firing someone who made an inappropriate joke. Why is that not enough example already?
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Even notoriously quiet Charlene who is 4 months pregnant and working here on an H1-B visa while supporting her ailing mother at home? Or Bob who was wearing headphones and on a video-call at the time? Things are not always as clear-cut in real-life as they are when contemplating a scenario on the Internet.
      - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        No problem! This was a group of good ol boys who'd hired each other and no women. Been going on for years apparently. So Charlene was not an issue.
    - jjones2 6y ago
      Years ago I applied for a major American company. When I went to the interview it was two guys asking me the questions. They made a sexist joke and were losing it with laughter, and I felt obligated to join in. And because I did, I got the job. So it has only opened doors and opportunities for me.
- bsder 6y ago
  > I asked our VP Engineering if she was a fit. He replied "Did you see the guys around her? If I hired her, we'd get nothing done around here!" I was appalled. Erm, I actually don't think that's an undue assessment necessarily if the guys really were acting like idiots. Hiring a female employee into that atmosphere would be suicidal. And the candidate is lucky she doesn't work there. The problem is the VP of Engineering not trying to fix his employees acting like jerks around a female candidate. Eventually that's going to bite the company in the ass.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    That startup could have been sunk if she had heard his rationalization. Illegal discrimination. Its time to stop excusing guys and blaming the women.
- timoth3y 6y ago
  > That was Friday. On Monday morning that Training department didn't exist. All 6 employees dismissed instantly Without more context, it's hard to know if that response was laudable or horrifying. If this was an ongoing pattern of behavior, then it's good they finally did something. If this was the big boss making a show by firing employees for laughing at their manager's inappropriate joke bu not reporting it to HR by the end of the day, then that's a pretty horrible place to work. The person who made the joke and his manager need to go, but the rest of the team? That's a harder case to make.
- counterpoint1 6y ago
  People constantly, openly make statements like "We don't need any jerks working here!" or "We don't hire jackasses" and are lauded and supported. Switching to a synonym which is maybe more often associated with female instead of male gets everyone in the entire department fired? What a horribly toxic environment. I can't imagine any employees slept soundly at night knowing that if they were in the room when someone said a PG-13 word that they'd be fired on the spot.
woeirua 6y ago
This just goes to show how much of a total pushover their CEO is. A competent CEO would have fired all of them on the spot once the investigation was completed. You don't let someone who sexually harasses coworkers resign in order to save face. Letting these people off the hook, regardless of how good an employee they were otherwise, perpetuates this behavior. I guarantee you that these men will go on to other companies and continue to do the exact same thing to someone else.
- Lammy 6y ago
  I’ve witnessed way too much general animosity toward women to ever believe the CEO is just incompetent and not “one of the boys”.
t-writescode 6y ago
The people that were "disciplined" were the offenders, not the people reporting the offense. Nevermind what I said. That said, I agree, they should definitely not be working for that company anymore (at least). It doesn't matter if you're firing your golden goose. This shows the level of respect this company has for the people it's surveilling, though, if even their own employees, when under surveillance, experience this level of disrespect. THIS PART IS WRONG, IT'S THE ORIGINAL POST AND I LEFT IT FOR POSTERITY: If in the US, wouldn't this be illegal? Retaliation against employees tends to go poorly for the retaliators.

by Lammy 6y ago

0goel0 6y ago

This is objectively the wrong way to handle sexual harassment. It only benefits the company by reclaiming some of the options and the harassers who lose nothing (and hence learn nothing).

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Agreed. Years ago when I worked at Unisys, it was reported to HR that upon leaving an interview at our Training department the candidate overheard "We don't need any bitches working here!" and general laughter. That was Friday. On Monday morning that Training department didn't exist. All 6 employees dismissed instantly; the department functions farmed out to different groups. Some of those employees had worked there for a decade. But at a startup 10 years later, after interviewing a recent graduate from the local college I asked our VP Engineering if she was a fit. He replied "Did you see the guys around her? If I hired her, we'd get nothing done around here!" I was appalled. He later became an executive at Carbonite.

Fnoord 6y ago
Not sure I understand this correct. Those 6 people got fired for laughing at an inappropriate joke? Was it proven they all laughed? I'd focus on the leader/troublemaker. My aunt once accused me of laughing at my grandmother's funeral. I don't remember, but I certainly meant to only be respectful at the funeral.
- theptip 6y ago
  Look up the “shocking rule” principle from Horowitz’s “What you do is who you are”. Sometimes you need to take a dramatic action to make it clear what your culture is (or what you want it to be). It’s perhaps unfair to one of those 6 who was hypothetically just being polite and pretending to laugh along. But you can bet the rest of the org got the message loud and clear. Sadly with entrenched -isms like sexism, it seems to require a drastic action like this to really make a change in org culture. It’s really hard to “make the company less sexist” if there is an entrenched bias among employees. And you may just need to fire a bunch of otherwise good people to get rid of it.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    > And you may just need to fire a bunch of otherwise good people to get rid of it. We're talking about bias here. While I don't disagree that it would get everyone to step in line firing people who did nothing wrong seems like a high level of collateral damage.
    - morelisp 6y ago
      Not speaking up when such a comment is made is doing something wrong.
      - NeutronStar 6y ago
        Easy to say on an internet forum, harder to do when it could be your boss making a joke.
        theptip 6y ago
        That's true, to be clear though, you could have raised it to HR without having to "be a hero" and challenge the group in public. Not to diminish the fact that even raising it to HR could be challenging in some orgs (e.g. see Susan Fowler's saga at Uber). And also worth noting that it's easier to find the confidence to report to HR in an org where the line has been clearly drawn by actions such as the dismissals that we're discussing -- that's the point of the "shocking rule" principle.
jjones2 6y ago
Fired for laughing? You didn't work at the funeral home or anything... Geez. Glad I never subscribed to PC culture!
- zentiggr 6y ago
  Unless that comment was followed by a chorus of every other voice in the room calling the one out for an obviously completely inappropriate statement, yes, everyone who didn't push back is gone. A comment like that isn't remotely appropriate. If that's what you're willing to say off the cuff, how am I going to expect you to treat the women around you day to day? I don't want that future lawsuit, or at a minimum another complaint to HR to have to navigate. Bye. The door is likely to hit your sexist ass on the way out.
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    The fact someone supposedly laughs at a sexist joke or does not oppose a sexist joke doesn't mean they're sexist. Drawing such conclusion and firing those alleged laughers is like shooting with a cannon on a mosquito. The discussion isn't about firing someone who made an inappropriate joke. Why is that not enough example already?
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Even notoriously quiet Charlene who is 4 months pregnant and working here on an H1-B visa while supporting her ailing mother at home? Or Bob who was wearing headphones and on a video-call at the time? Things are not always as clear-cut in real-life as they are when contemplating a scenario on the Internet.
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      No problem! This was a group of good ol boys who'd hired each other and no women. Been going on for years apparently. So Charlene was not an issue.
  - jjones2 6y ago
    Years ago I applied for a major American company. When I went to the interview it was two guys asking me the questions. They made a sexist joke and were losing it with laughter, and I felt obligated to join in. And because I did, I got the job. So it has only opened doors and opportunities for me.
bsder 6y ago
> I asked our VP Engineering if she was a fit. He replied "Did you see the guys around her? If I hired her, we'd get nothing done around here!" I was appalled. Erm, I actually don't think that's an undue assessment necessarily if the guys really were acting like idiots. Hiring a female employee into that atmosphere would be suicidal. And the candidate is lucky she doesn't work there. The problem is the VP of Engineering not trying to fix his employees acting like jerks around a female candidate. Eventually that's going to bite the company in the ass.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  That startup could have been sunk if she had heard his rationalization. Illegal discrimination. Its time to stop excusing guys and blaming the women.
timoth3y 6y ago
> That was Friday. On Monday morning that Training department didn't exist. All 6 employees dismissed instantly Without more context, it's hard to know if that response was laudable or horrifying. If this was an ongoing pattern of behavior, then it's good they finally did something. If this was the big boss making a show by firing employees for laughing at their manager's inappropriate joke bu not reporting it to HR by the end of the day, then that's a pretty horrible place to work. The person who made the joke and his manager need to go, but the rest of the team? That's a harder case to make.
counterpoint1 6y ago
People constantly, openly make statements like "We don't need any jerks working here!" or "We don't hire jackasses" and are lauded and supported. Switching to a synonym which is maybe more often associated with female instead of male gets everyone in the entire department fired? What a horribly toxic environment. I can't imagine any employees slept soundly at night knowing that if they were in the room when someone said a PG-13 word that they'd be fired on the spot.

woeirua 6y ago

This just goes to show how much of a total pushover their CEO is. A competent CEO would have fired all of them on the spot once the investigation was completed. You don't let someone who sexually harasses coworkers resign in order to save face. Letting these people off the hook, regardless of how good an employee they were otherwise, perpetuates this behavior. I guarantee you that these men will go on to other companies and continue to do the exact same thing to someone else.

Lammy 6y ago
I’ve witnessed way too much general animosity toward women to ever believe the CEO is just incompetent and not “one of the boys”.

t-writescode 6y ago

The people that were "disciplined" were the offenders, not the people reporting the offense. Nevermind what I said. That said, I agree, they should definitely not be working for that company anymore (at least). It doesn't matter if you're firing your golden goose. This shows the level of respect this company has for the people it's surveilling, though, if even their own employees, when under surveillance, experience this level of disrespect. THIS PART IS WRONG, IT'S THE ORIGINAL POST AND I LEFT IT FOR POSTERITY: If in the US, wouldn't this be illegal? Retaliation against employees tends to go poorly for the retaliators.