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I don't know anything about Benton Harbor, but here in the United States being told a town has "bad schools" tends to be very highly correlated to large non-whi

I don't know anything about Benton Harbor, but here in the United States being told a town has "bad schools" tends to be very highly correlated to large non-white population. I just looked it up and oh hey, Benton Harbor's population is 89% African-American.

ketzo 6y ago
Yeah. It’s a vicious cycle, particularly in predominantly-Republican/Southern states. There’s very, very, very little support for public education at a state level — or even nationally; I mean, our goddamn Secretary of Education is Betsy DeVos, who advocates for charter schools to a degree that is frankly sickening when the reality is that they are, on average, shit for the success of a community. It’s gross, and has very recent racist roots. I went to high school with kids whose parents founded “white flight” private schools in my city. It’s not that GP is racist, or something — but to deny the connection between race and public education in the US would be silly at best and malicious at worst (see, for example, Fox News/aforementioned DeVos)
- ffggvv 6y ago
  "especially in republican states"... meanwhile LA and NY public schools in black areas are among the worst in the country despite massive amounts of funding. https://www.laweekly.com/california-is-home-to-some-of-americas-worst-public-schools/ https://www.laweekly.com/california-is-home-to-some-of-ameri...
  - CaptArmchair 6y ago
    > A new analysis of the nation's public schools, by personal finance site WalletHub That's a private company doing a performance on a public service? A personal finance company at that? How did they arrive at doing this analysis? I even tried opening the linked analysis from two different IP addresses, but all I get is this message: [1] > Oops! This IP address has been blocked due to too many requests. To unblock, please send your IP address via email to help@wallethub.com. [1] https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/ https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/ Moving on, this is what the article says: > The study was based on 17 metrics, including student-to-teacher ratio, dropout rates and average SAT and ACT scores. Compared with the other 49 states and the District of Columbia, California ranked 47th in reading test scores, 46th in math test scores and dead last in student-teacher ratios. I'm very curious about those metrics. Because the three that are mentioned only give a superficial glance of what's going on. Correlation is not causation, for one. Are drop out rates or low SAT/ACT scores directly related to the quality of education? Or the poor social economic situation of the households in which children grow up? Without follow up, I'd be very careful about drawing conclusions. > “More resources do not always correlate with better academic performance, as our findings demonstrate,” Of course not. Then there's also the larger debate whether academic performance alone should be the main goal of public schools? Isn't the purpose of providing an education, ensuring that the next generation grows up into stable, independent and healthy adults? For instance, she push towards standardized testing in which private publishers such as Pearson have come to play a crucial role is something that does deserve a discussion in it's own right as well, no? [2] [2] https://qz.com/398279/watch-john-oliver-dismantle-american-standardized-testing/ https://qz.com/398279/watch-john-oliver-dismantle-american-s...
    - akiselev 6y ago
      I could access your [1] from wallethub, for what it's worth, and... you're better off blocked. I tried to find any sort of external link to citations but could only find this blurb at the end: > Sources: Data used to create this ranking were collected from the U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. Department of Education, National Conference of State Legislatures, National Center for Education Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Western Interstate Commission for Higher Education, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, Child and Adolescent Health Measurement Initiative, Education Commission of the States, U.S. News & World Report, College Board, Ballotpedia, ACT, National Governors Association, State Educational Technology Directors Association and Zendrive. Source: Secret Order of the Forsaken Keebler elves.
    - GoblinSlayer 6y ago
      >Are drop out rates or low SAT/ACT scores directly related to the quality of education? Like what, students know the material perfectly, but drop out and lower their scores for lulz?
- laverya 6y ago
  So, funnily enough, Michigan ranks above California on USNews's k-12 education metric, 29:37. [0] So does Texas, at 33. And Missouri. And Virginia. And Florida. I think your stereotype of "smart liberals spending money for a good education" and "dumb hicks throwing their kids futures away for a penny" might be a liiiiitle bit off. 0: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education
ffggvv 6y ago
whats your point? are you supposed to willingly condemn your child to a bad school because of that fact?
- Cro_on 6y ago
  condemn them... its got just as much of a chance to save them.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
Bad schools means the student population comes from households with low incomes, and hence are less likely to have home environments preferable for schoolwork compared to home environments areas with households with high incomes. i.e. "You are the company you keep", so people try to ensure their kids are surrounded by other kids with economically secure families, in the hopes that their influence will lead to higher probabilities of success.

ketzo 6y ago

Yeah. It’s a vicious cycle, particularly in predominantly-Republican/Southern states. There’s very, very, very little support for public education at a state level — or even nationally; I mean, our goddamn Secretary of Education is Betsy DeVos, who advocates for charter schools to a degree that is frankly sickening when the reality is that they are, on average, shit for the success of a community. It’s gross, and has very recent racist roots. I went to high school with kids whose parents founded “white flight” private schools in my city. It’s not that GP is racist, or something — but to deny the connection between race and public education in the US would be silly at best and malicious at worst (see, for example, Fox News/aforementioned DeVos)

ffggvv 6y ago
"especially in republican states"... meanwhile LA and NY public schools in black areas are among the worst in the country despite massive amounts of funding. https://www.laweekly.com/california-is-home-to-some-of-americas-worst-public-schools/ https://www.laweekly.com/california-is-home-to-some-of-ameri...
- CaptArmchair 6y ago
  > A new analysis of the nation's public schools, by personal finance site WalletHub That's a private company doing a performance on a public service? A personal finance company at that? How did they arrive at doing this analysis? I even tried opening the linked analysis from two different IP addresses, but all I get is this message: [1] > Oops! This IP address has been blocked due to too many requests. To unblock, please send your IP address via email to help@wallethub.com. [1] https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/ https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/ Moving on, this is what the article says: > The study was based on 17 metrics, including student-to-teacher ratio, dropout rates and average SAT and ACT scores. Compared with the other 49 states and the District of Columbia, California ranked 47th in reading test scores, 46th in math test scores and dead last in student-teacher ratios. I'm very curious about those metrics. Because the three that are mentioned only give a superficial glance of what's going on. Correlation is not causation, for one. Are drop out rates or low SAT/ACT scores directly related to the quality of education? Or the poor social economic situation of the households in which children grow up? Without follow up, I'd be very careful about drawing conclusions. > “More resources do not always correlate with better academic performance, as our findings demonstrate,” Of course not. Then there's also the larger debate whether academic performance alone should be the main goal of public schools? Isn't the purpose of providing an education, ensuring that the next generation grows up into stable, independent and healthy adults? For instance, she push towards standardized testing in which private publishers such as Pearson have come to play a crucial role is something that does deserve a discussion in it's own right as well, no? [2] [2] https://qz.com/398279/watch-john-oliver-dismantle-american-standardized-testing/ https://qz.com/398279/watch-john-oliver-dismantle-american-s...
  - akiselev 6y ago
    I could access your [1] from wallethub, for what it's worth, and... you're better off blocked. I tried to find any sort of external link to citations but could only find this blurb at the end: > Sources: Data used to create this ranking were collected from the U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. Department of Education, National Conference of State Legislatures, National Center for Education Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Western Interstate Commission for Higher Education, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, Child and Adolescent Health Measurement Initiative, Education Commission of the States, U.S. News & World Report, College Board, Ballotpedia, ACT, National Governors Association, State Educational Technology Directors Association and Zendrive. Source: Secret Order of the Forsaken Keebler elves.
  - GoblinSlayer 6y ago
    >Are drop out rates or low SAT/ACT scores directly related to the quality of education? Like what, students know the material perfectly, but drop out and lower their scores for lulz?
laverya 6y ago
So, funnily enough, Michigan ranks above California on USNews's k-12 education metric, 29:37. [0] So does Texas, at 33. And Missouri. And Virginia. And Florida. I think your stereotype of "smart liberals spending money for a good education" and "dumb hicks throwing their kids futures away for a penny" might be a liiiiitle bit off. 0: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education

ffggvv 6y ago

whats your point? are you supposed to willingly condemn your child to a bad school because of that fact?

Cro_on 6y ago
condemn them... its got just as much of a chance to save them.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

Bad schools means the student population comes from households with low incomes, and hence are less likely to have home environments preferable for schoolwork compared to home environments areas with households with high incomes. i.e. "You are the company you keep", so people try to ensure their kids are surrounded by other kids with economically secure families, in the hopes that their influence will lead to higher probabilities of success.