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How big is the set of people that can work remotely from wherever they choose to live and also would value $15k enough for it to play a significant role in that

How big is the set of people that can work remotely from wherever they choose to live and also would value $15k enough for it to play a significant role in that choice?

lwigo 6y ago
New CS grads with student loans.
- hedora 6y ago
  Really? I’d guess one year’s difference in starting salary dwarfs $15K. I wonder if anyone’s got good (pre/post covid) statistics.
  - rlanday 6y ago
    Does this difference in pay for remote workers based on city actually exist yet? I feel like a bunch of people are e.g. just telling Google they’re going to work out of Mountain View or New York and counting on never being asked to actually go to the office.
    - sethhochberg 6y ago
      In the pre-pandemic days when companies encouraging remote work were fewer and further between, it was very typical in my experience for them to pay market rate for your actual location - whatever location you met the qualifications for legal residence in. I know of at least a few places that do/did sort of a globally averaged salary - their rates aren’t adjusted for location, but if you’re in a major North American city you might be disappointed. If you’re rural, or in less expensive parts of the world, their salaries were well above market. Tax domicile is a real concern. The BigTech firms are smart enough to know and care where your actual legal residence is, and presumably they’re not going to let you pretend to be in SF to collect SF-adjusted wages while actually living in Michigan and collecting their legal benefits.
    - Natales 6y ago
      It does exist. I work for a ~30K software company, and they have a detailed pay multiplier scale depending on where you live. Furthermore, they will adjust your salary if you move from one area to another, and the rates are not insignificant.
      - echelon 6y ago
        This is the stupidest thing. You're not worth more if you live in a different city.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I have yet to hear a better definition of economic worth than a buyer and seller agreeing on a price. Clearly, if an employer of 30k people is finding sellers of labor to agree to a lower price in certain areas, then sellers of labor in that area are "worth" that much. Similarly, the employer of 30k people isn't paying people more in certain areas for no reason either. They must have ran out of options for cheaper labor before they decided to pay more.
        echelon 6y ago
        Sure, but sellers are inclined to shop around as well. The seller has to agree on the price. You're hearing lots of unhappy sellers.
peterwoerner 6y ago
Many white collar workers who aren't programmers. I am a mechanical engineer doing math modelling so I can theoretically work remotely. I make about 100k/year, 15k is a years worth of savings or a years worth of overtime (post tax). With that being said, it wouldn't cover the cost of a move and so would only be tempting if I already had family living in the area.
Raidion 6y ago
It doesn't have to be huge, I don't think you're going to get a ton of people to move based on this financial incentive alone. A lot of people might have friends, family, or other ties to the region, and this is just what they need to convince them to make the switch. 15k isn't much, but it will cover a smaller move and closing costs pretty well for a lot of people. This is especially true if you're already in the Indiana/Wisconsin/Ohio area.
bradlys 6y ago
There are a significant portion of people who do work that can be remote. I know we're on HN where we assume everyone is in the top 1-5% of earners (nationally) and is an engineer/cto/ceo/founder/gururockstarninja but these offers seem much more aimed at the clerical office worker type or some other lower paid work. I doubt many engineers take these offers up. The ones I read about the people who took up the Tulsa ones didn't sound like engineers.
onecommentman 6y ago
I’m guessing the younger worker, 20 to 35, or the older worker near retirement who was thinking of Michigan anyway. For the younger worker, it’s smart marketing. “Say, are you sick of staying on a treadmill, watching your dream of owning a home in a decent neighborhood slip away? Effectively losing money every year as the real estate market skyrockets out of sight, unwilling to bet on the “greater fool” dynamic of overheated markets to be house-poor for the majority of your adult life? That place/State where you’re working hates you, and they show it by making everything worthwhile too expensive and too time-consuming. But we in Michigan love you and will care for you and we prove it in the most American way possible by giving you $15K upfront. In some of our towns, that’s almost a down payment on a house, a nice house in a safe neighborhood that would cost twice/three times/four times/...as compared to that overhyped overpriced tech slum you’re “living” in now. In a market much less likely to collapse than where you’re struggling to get a down payment. And with people who are friendly and think you and your income are really quite amazing and will bend over backwards to help you out. They will be genuinely happy to have you as a new resident of your new town. Won’t that feel wonderful, as you settle into that town that fits you like a warm glove on a cold winter night.” And there are many towns like that in every State of the Union. But Michigan offers $15K in good faith to get you started. Michigan wants you. You are special to Michigan. That’s a powerful message... And the older worker will have much of their retirement funds spent wherever they choose to retire to. Why not spend them in a place that expresses its appreciation upfront in the form of a love letter written in gold?
marta_morena_28 6y ago
Small? I guess the set of people who think that a lumpsum of 15k is better than higher salary, might actually be big? 15k is more like a rounding error when it comes to tech salary. I am not even sure this would make any difference if they paid you 15k each year for life. Then maybe it becomes attractive again :D.
asdff 6y ago
15k is a free down payment on a home out there, basically. Not a bad offer to be fair.
jbhouse 6y ago
It's small. But as an avid fisherman and boater who would like to live in either Wisconsin or Michigan, this could be a deciding factor (remote work is only temporary for me right now, but theoretically it might make a difference for me, though the Michigan winters would probably still be a non-starter)
gnopgnip 6y ago
I don't think it would be appealing from people who could choose anywhere to live, there are cheaper places, places with lower taxes and so on. But for people with family in the area, within two hours of Chicago, the $15k, and the other more general benefits, lower real estate prices and taxes, less traffic etc, it could be a good reason to pick one of these cities to move to.

How big is the set of people that can work remotely from wherever they choose to live and also would value $15k enough for it to play a significant role in that choice?

lwigo 6y ago

New CS grads with student loans.

hedora 6y ago
Really? I’d guess one year’s difference in starting salary dwarfs $15K. I wonder if anyone’s got good (pre/post covid) statistics.
- rlanday 6y ago
  Does this difference in pay for remote workers based on city actually exist yet? I feel like a bunch of people are e.g. just telling Google they’re going to work out of Mountain View or New York and counting on never being asked to actually go to the office.
  - sethhochberg 6y ago
    In the pre-pandemic days when companies encouraging remote work were fewer and further between, it was very typical in my experience for them to pay market rate for your actual location - whatever location you met the qualifications for legal residence in. I know of at least a few places that do/did sort of a globally averaged salary - their rates aren’t adjusted for location, but if you’re in a major North American city you might be disappointed. If you’re rural, or in less expensive parts of the world, their salaries were well above market. Tax domicile is a real concern. The BigTech firms are smart enough to know and care where your actual legal residence is, and presumably they’re not going to let you pretend to be in SF to collect SF-adjusted wages while actually living in Michigan and collecting their legal benefits.
  - Natales 6y ago
    It does exist. I work for a ~30K software company, and they have a detailed pay multiplier scale depending on where you live. Furthermore, they will adjust your salary if you move from one area to another, and the rates are not insignificant.
    - echelon 6y ago
      This is the stupidest thing. You're not worth more if you live in a different city.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I have yet to hear a better definition of economic worth than a buyer and seller agreeing on a price. Clearly, if an employer of 30k people is finding sellers of labor to agree to a lower price in certain areas, then sellers of labor in that area are "worth" that much. Similarly, the employer of 30k people isn't paying people more in certain areas for no reason either. They must have ran out of options for cheaper labor before they decided to pay more.
        echelon 6y ago
        Sure, but sellers are inclined to shop around as well. The seller has to agree on the price. You're hearing lots of unhappy sellers.

peterwoerner 6y ago

Many white collar workers who aren't programmers. I am a mechanical engineer doing math modelling so I can theoretically work remotely. I make about 100k/year, 15k is a years worth of savings or a years worth of overtime (post tax). With that being said, it wouldn't cover the cost of a move and so would only be tempting if I already had family living in the area.

Raidion 6y ago

It doesn't have to be huge, I don't think you're going to get a ton of people to move based on this financial incentive alone. A lot of people might have friends, family, or other ties to the region, and this is just what they need to convince them to make the switch. 15k isn't much, but it will cover a smaller move and closing costs pretty well for a lot of people. This is especially true if you're already in the Indiana/Wisconsin/Ohio area.

bradlys 6y ago

There are a significant portion of people who do work that can be remote. I know we're on HN where we assume everyone is in the top 1-5% of earners (nationally) and is an engineer/cto/ceo/founder/gururockstarninja but these offers seem much more aimed at the clerical office worker type or some other lower paid work. I doubt many engineers take these offers up. The ones I read about the people who took up the Tulsa ones didn't sound like engineers.

onecommentman 6y ago

I’m guessing the younger worker, 20 to 35, or the older worker near retirement who was thinking of Michigan anyway. For the younger worker, it’s smart marketing. “Say, are you sick of staying on a treadmill, watching your dream of owning a home in a decent neighborhood slip away? Effectively losing money every year as the real estate market skyrockets out of sight, unwilling to bet on the “greater fool” dynamic of overheated markets to be house-poor for the majority of your adult life? That place/State where you’re working hates you, and they show it by making everything worthwhile too expensive and too time-consuming. But we in Michigan love you and will care for you and we prove it in the most American way possible by giving you $15K upfront. In some of our towns, that’s almost a down payment on a house, a nice house in a safe neighborhood that would cost twice/three times/four times/...as compared to that overhyped overpriced tech slum you’re “living” in now. In a market much less likely to collapse than where you’re struggling to get a down payment. And with people who are friendly and think you and your income are really quite amazing and will bend over backwards to help you out. They will be genuinely happy to have you as a new resident of your new town. Won’t that feel wonderful, as you settle into that town that fits you like a warm glove on a cold winter night.” And there are many towns like that in every State of the Union. But Michigan offers $15K in good faith to get you started. Michigan wants you. You are special to Michigan. That’s a powerful message... And the older worker will have much of their retirement funds spent wherever they choose to retire to. Why not spend them in a place that expresses its appreciation upfront in the form of a love letter written in gold?

marta_morena_28 6y ago

Small? I guess the set of people who think that a lumpsum of 15k is better than higher salary, might actually be big? 15k is more like a rounding error when it comes to tech salary. I am not even sure this would make any difference if they paid you 15k each year for life. Then maybe it becomes attractive again :D.

asdff 6y ago

15k is a free down payment on a home out there, basically. Not a bad offer to be fair.

jbhouse 6y ago

It's small. But as an avid fisherman and boater who would like to live in either Wisconsin or Michigan, this could be a deciding factor (remote work is only temporary for me right now, but theoretically it might make a difference for me, though the Michigan winters would probably still be a non-starter)

gnopgnip 6y ago

I don't think it would be appealing from people who could choose anywhere to live, there are cheaper places, places with lower taxes and so on. But for people with family in the area, within two hours of Chicago, the $15k, and the other more general benefits, lower real estate prices and taxes, less traffic etc, it could be a good reason to pick one of these cities to move to.