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The least interesting 'feature' to me for note taking is a third party cloud-based tool storing and organizing them for me. I'm likely an outlier, because I (a)

The least interesting 'feature' to me for note taking is a third party cloud-based tool storing and organizing them for me. I'm likely an outlier, because I (a)take notes in text files, (b)maintain complete control over them, and (c)value privacy over convenience. I realize the cloud is where all the sexy people try and make money today, but...I'm worn out by slight variations on the same old pitch: 'here's a database with a UI, and we'll host the database!'.

ar_lan 6y ago
> I'm worn out by slight variations on the same old pitch: 'here's a database with a UI, and we'll host the database!'. AKA - I learned how to make a CRUD app - pay me money (or your data) for it!
- ozim 6y ago
  Database with UI and CRUD apps are generally OK, because there is still loads of people who cannot do that and they something like that. What I don't like are "personal productivity applications", because those seem like they are created by people without imagination. Making another TODO app with email remainders, quantified self, CRM's to manage connections with friends and family. Those kind of apps that are created by "self improvement nerds" for people like them. Problem is those apps never solve any real world issues. Because people who are self improvement nerds would rather build their own system and people who don't care about it won't use it. For me those apps are in category of self improvement books. Where for most of the people investment in self improvement system quickly goes above return on that investment. Just when you start tweaking your .vimrc and at the end of the day instead of doing work you just played with your settings. Using such tools and tweaking those will quickly end up in using tool instead of actually living ones life. When you know your uncle Ted does not like you, using system that reminds you about his birthday is not going to change that. You are not going to become millionaire by using some system that "millionaires use". Using Elon Musk time management is not going to make you successful owner of multiple companies if you are working 9-5 drone job.
  - nicbou 6y ago
    This is fine if you enjoy it. Sometimes it's fun to build overkill solutions. The goal isn't the productivity gains, but to enjoy the process itself.
- austenallred 6y ago
  That’s like 99% of software. Is people building software and selling it really that crazy?
  - nathanganser 6y ago
    Interesting to read those points of view. There are really many different ways to look at things... :P But to me at least, building a CRUD app that makes someone's life 10x better is worth a lot :) (even though our app is much more than just a crud app!)
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      Even making someone's life 10x better with a simplest of CRUD apps is not in itself a justification for offering a Faustian bargain. Because it's not the CRUD part that's the problem, but the part in which the vendor owns the database and means to access it.
jamesbvaughan 6y ago
I share your lack of interest in using this specific product because I also prefer something closer to plain text notes that I manage for things like this, but I do think this is a more interesting service than just "a database with a UI". The automatic reminders to read and type notes via emails solves a problem that I expect many people have with taking these kinds of notes: remembering to write them after meetings and remembering to read them before meetings.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
Absolutely. I've been burned too many times by startups with proprietary clouds. They always either go bankrupt or get acquired and shut down. Make one that saves everything to my Github account and then we'll talk.
- rlayton2 6y ago
  I did this by making two scripts ./push.sh which is just a git commit -a -m TODAYS_DATE, and ./pull.sh
- nathanganser 6y ago
  This is indeed feedback we've received a few times. What is different in our case is that we haven't raised any VC money. We don't have any outside pressure and one of the main reasons we're building this app is for ourselves: we just really need such a tool. This means we're far less likely to sell and regarding profitability, we're sharing our revenues transparently here: https://www.indiehackers.com/product/nat-bot https://www.indiehackers.com/product/nat-bot.
  - corobo 6y ago
    In fairness it also means you're much more likely to run out of money. Worst case scenario how long are you keeping this running at $34/mo+me revenue?
    - nathanganser 6y ago
      We're still early and don't expect to keep making 30 bucks a month of course :)
  - crossroadsguy 6y ago
    I believe notes (personal or professional) should be as protected and as private as it gets. At least e2e with open source clients. So while I appreciate you mentioning your business and financial aspirations, please remember the time when that, now famous, VR company had a kickstarter. Later - "journey thingie", "we have the same goals", "synergy" etc happened to them at Facebook. In fact, in the case of WhatsApp a poor cofounder wasn't even able to see what Facebook planned to do with WhatsApp, something almost everybody was able to see with their eyes closed, when they took the billions (happy for them). He is now a respected billionaire born again privacy crusader. Nice guy. On another note: personally I have been moving my notes to Standard Notes. nv -> nvAlt -> Apple Notes -> Simplenote -> Standard Notes (I wish these guys had native apps). Bear is a solid app and I wanted to pay but they are not FOSS. I am also keeping an eye on https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes (native and promising). https://github.com/serhii-londar/open-source-mac-os-apps#notes https://github.com/serhii-londar/open-source-mac-os-apps#not... some more.
benwills 6y ago
I also take notes, etc, in plain text. In order to sync across devices, I use Standard Notes, which also implements end to end encryption of your data. There's a self-hosted open source version. And there's a paid version to host on their servers, which I've used for a few years now and have never had an issue with. If you like the plain text format (with option to use Markdown), you might like it. For me, the benefit is when I have random things throughout the day I realize I need to do. I add it to my phone, and I then immediately have it on all of my Linux and Mac desktops and laptops. I also live in the mountains and frequently take notes while out of cell/wifi service and syncing has still been great.
mukeshsoni 6y ago
I wrote a workflowy clone for myself so that i could store my notes on my dropbox account - https://www.deepnotes.in/ https://www.deepnotes.in/. But things like collaborative editing become impossible with this model. Or maybe i don't know enough.
corobo 6y ago
Same, but not even primarily a privacy thing (tho that is a very close second) I want to be able to access the notes. At all times. If I've got battery power, I should have my notes. Even Evernote screws this up sometimes if you're on a slow (not down) network I've switched to Joplin myself because it just syncs every so often. My notes aren't hidden behind some bloated app that struggles with high latency and as a bonus my central storage is my NAS over WebDAV (and Tailscale to access it everywhere I have internet access)
thijsvandien 6y ago
For me as well, this is exactly the kind of stuff I don't want to store in somebody's SaaS.

ar_lan 6y ago

> I'm worn out by slight variations on the same old pitch: 'here's a database with a UI, and we'll host the database!'. AKA - I learned how to make a CRUD app - pay me money (or your data) for it!

ozim 6y ago
Database with UI and CRUD apps are generally OK, because there is still loads of people who cannot do that and they something like that. What I don't like are "personal productivity applications", because those seem like they are created by people without imagination. Making another TODO app with email remainders, quantified self, CRM's to manage connections with friends and family. Those kind of apps that are created by "self improvement nerds" for people like them. Problem is those apps never solve any real world issues. Because people who are self improvement nerds would rather build their own system and people who don't care about it won't use it. For me those apps are in category of self improvement books. Where for most of the people investment in self improvement system quickly goes above return on that investment. Just when you start tweaking your .vimrc and at the end of the day instead of doing work you just played with your settings. Using such tools and tweaking those will quickly end up in using tool instead of actually living ones life. When you know your uncle Ted does not like you, using system that reminds you about his birthday is not going to change that. You are not going to become millionaire by using some system that "millionaires use". Using Elon Musk time management is not going to make you successful owner of multiple companies if you are working 9-5 drone job.
- nicbou 6y ago
  This is fine if you enjoy it. Sometimes it's fun to build overkill solutions. The goal isn't the productivity gains, but to enjoy the process itself.
austenallred 6y ago
That’s like 99% of software. Is people building software and selling it really that crazy?
- nathanganser 6y ago
  Interesting to read those points of view. There are really many different ways to look at things... :P But to me at least, building a CRUD app that makes someone's life 10x better is worth a lot :) (even though our app is much more than just a crud app!)
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Even making someone's life 10x better with a simplest of CRUD apps is not in itself a justification for offering a Faustian bargain. Because it's not the CRUD part that's the problem, but the part in which the vendor owns the database and means to access it.

jamesbvaughan 6y ago

I share your lack of interest in using this specific product because I also prefer something closer to plain text notes that I manage for things like this, but I do think this is a more interesting service than just "a database with a UI". The automatic reminders to read and type notes via emails solves a problem that I expect many people have with taking these kinds of notes: remembering to write them after meetings and remembering to read them before meetings.

dreamcompiler 6y ago

Absolutely. I've been burned too many times by startups with proprietary clouds. They always either go bankrupt or get acquired and shut down. Make one that saves everything to my Github account and then we'll talk.

rlayton2 6y ago
I did this by making two scripts ./push.sh which is just a git commit -a -m TODAYS_DATE, and ./pull.sh
nathanganser 6y ago
This is indeed feedback we've received a few times. What is different in our case is that we haven't raised any VC money. We don't have any outside pressure and one of the main reasons we're building this app is for ourselves: we just really need such a tool. This means we're far less likely to sell and regarding profitability, we're sharing our revenues transparently here: https://www.indiehackers.com/product/nat-bot https://www.indiehackers.com/product/nat-bot.
- corobo 6y ago
  In fairness it also means you're much more likely to run out of money. Worst case scenario how long are you keeping this running at $34/mo+me revenue?
  - nathanganser 6y ago
    We're still early and don't expect to keep making 30 bucks a month of course :)
- crossroadsguy 6y ago
  I believe notes (personal or professional) should be as protected and as private as it gets. At least e2e with open source clients. So while I appreciate you mentioning your business and financial aspirations, please remember the time when that, now famous, VR company had a kickstarter. Later - "journey thingie", "we have the same goals", "synergy" etc happened to them at Facebook. In fact, in the case of WhatsApp a poor cofounder wasn't even able to see what Facebook planned to do with WhatsApp, something almost everybody was able to see with their eyes closed, when they took the billions (happy for them). He is now a respected billionaire born again privacy crusader. Nice guy. On another note: personally I have been moving my notes to Standard Notes. nv -> nvAlt -> Apple Notes -> Simplenote -> Standard Notes (I wish these guys had native apps). Bear is a solid app and I wanted to pay but they are not FOSS. I am also keeping an eye on https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes (native and promising). https://github.com/serhii-londar/open-source-mac-os-apps#notes https://github.com/serhii-londar/open-source-mac-os-apps#not... some more.

benwills 6y ago

I also take notes, etc, in plain text. In order to sync across devices, I use Standard Notes, which also implements end to end encryption of your data. There's a self-hosted open source version. And there's a paid version to host on their servers, which I've used for a few years now and have never had an issue with. If you like the plain text format (with option to use Markdown), you might like it. For me, the benefit is when I have random things throughout the day I realize I need to do. I add it to my phone, and I then immediately have it on all of my Linux and Mac desktops and laptops. I also live in the mountains and frequently take notes while out of cell/wifi service and syncing has still been great.

mukeshsoni 6y ago

I wrote a workflowy clone for myself so that i could store my notes on my dropbox account - https://www.deepnotes.in/ https://www.deepnotes.in/. But things like collaborative editing become impossible with this model. Or maybe i don't know enough.

corobo 6y ago

Same, but not even primarily a privacy thing (tho that is a very close second) I want to be able to access the notes. At all times. If I've got battery power, I should have my notes. Even Evernote screws this up sometimes if you're on a slow (not down) network I've switched to Joplin myself because it just syncs every so often. My notes aren't hidden behind some bloated app that struggles with high latency and as a bonus my central storage is my NAS over WebDAV (and Tailscale to access it everywhere I have internet access)

thijsvandien 6y ago

For me as well, this is exactly the kind of stuff I don't want to store in somebody's SaaS.