4 ms·

The best I've found is just lying. Being cagey and asking "well what is it worth to you" seems to be working less and less these days. I've had companies flat o

The best I've found is just lying. Being cagey and asking "well what is it worth to you" seems to be working less and less these days. I've had companies flat out refuse to continue without a concrete answer to the current salary question. So, I add ~20% (adjusted based on the job) to my actual salary and tell them that number. If they like me so much they'll give me more? Awesome, big raise. If my "expectations are too high" and they offer me less? Cool, still getting a decent raise (assuming I take the job, because that's a pretty big red flag). They're clearly going to play some BS mindgames with me, so I'll preemptively mess with their anchor number.

kbutler 6y ago
Rather than lying, state "I'm looking for [range]"
- scrooched_moose 6y ago
  Ideally yes and I play that game as long as I can, but eventually it often comes down to a direct "What is your current salary" question. Responding with "I'm looking for $X-$Y" often isn't an acceptable answer and they continue pushing for current salary. I've noticed it much more in the last 2-3 years, where they absolutely will not continue the process without a current salary, which is when I resort to that made up number.
- cashewchoo 6y ago
  What exactly could they do to determine you are lying?
  - HenryBemis 6y ago
    Nothing :) but many people think "oh what if they know someone on the HR of my current company and they call them up and ask them and they tell them????".
    - hodgesrm 6y ago
      IANAL but in California that sounds like grounds for a lawsuit or even criminal prosecution. (Assuming you found out about it, of course.) See https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB&sectionNum=432.3 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio.... It's pretty clear.
    - comeonseriously 6y ago
      Is that even legal? Most companies have a "yes, that person worked here" policy.
      - HenryBemis 6y ago
        > "yes, that person worked here" 2 reasons to do this: 1) In many (I assume all) countries companies run background checks. When I claim that I have worked for 10 years as role-XYZ in company-ABC, they need to somehow verify this claim. The (closed) question is "Did Henry Bemis worked as role-XYZ in your company for 10y?" And the answer is either Yes/No (or a very slight variation of the asnwer, to clarify the role title (due to traslation or interpretation issues)(i.e. asking in English language for a role in Italy). 2) In Europe (were we get a good number of vacation days) the "next" employer will need some form of verification for your years of work, as the number of vacation days increase depending on the number of years you worked. Different ranges for different countries. Although the "next employer" does have a copy of your CV and can add the years, they should have the assurance that "total of 10 years" is actual "10 years".
etothepii 6y ago
The problem with this approach is that it is fraud. You'll never get charged for it, but it is fraud. It's also not the biggest delta I've heard about while doing user feedback interviews for our salary estimation startup [1]. We had one user who ended up being offered double the salary he was expecting ($300k instead of $150k). He now swears by getting to the magic phrase, "we'd love to have you on board X, we just need to talk about numbers." This single negotiation allowed his wife to stop work and for them to start a family. [1] https://peerwyse.com https://peerwyse.com
- WWLink 6y ago
  Please show me where this is stated in the law. In California it's definitely illegal for an employer to ask you that information https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2282 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
  - etothepii 6y ago
    Just because it illegal to ask a question does not mean answering it dishonestly is not fraudulent. Perhaps there is some argument that as the question should not have been asked the answer can not be material. Many contracts of employment contain a clause allowing summary dismissal if found to have lied during your application.
HenryBemis 6y ago
I never tell them what I am/was making. This information stays with me and my accountant. I then (always) ask them to email me detailed (usually 2-3 pages) job specs. Sometimes they call something "Manager" and it could be a +2 or -2 ranks. It's nomenclature. Different companies go crazy on the titles. After I read the specs, I ask them the range. If they absolutely want to know how much I make, or how much I want, I just bid them farewell. It's probably a shitty company, or it has a shitty HR. Either way, I can always (hope) to find a job in a better place. The asymmetry of information can really f... up your chances to maximize your income. Never give them a number because you enter a negotiation blindfolded. Edit: This has always worked for me.
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
Another alternative to lying is playing the stock comp games companies play. "My comp has a large stock component, and as you know, it's tough to put a dollar number on it. Given current valuation estimates/growth trend/TAM/exit hopes/whatever, I'd estimate my total comp around [the high end of what I think you would consider reasonable]." If they say it's too high, then you can say you might be willing to take a little less, potentially, for more of that to be cash/public liquid options/predictable/stable/whatever.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  This is actually a great response.
- tj-teej 6y ago
  +1 to this, lying is never the right move, especially to a company you want to join.
snowwrestler 6y ago
A colleague lost a hire over this. They found a great candidate and was ready to extend an offer once HR completed the background check. HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary. Lying during hiring is a mandatory "no" by company policy; bye-bye candidate. If the candidate had simply declined to disclose previous salary, they almost certainly would have been hired. In general, I would be careful about lying during hiring. Hard to predict the consequences if it is ever discovered. There are plenty of examples of even senior people getting kicked over this sort of thing.
- wcerfgba 6y ago
  > HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary. How did they find out? I can't imagine they determined this from financial records so I intuit they must have been told by the candidate's previous employer, and if revealing an ex-employee's salary isn't illegal I would have surely thought it was pretty shady / frowned upon.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary. Lying during hiring is a mandatory "no" by company policy; bye-bye candidate. What if he simply priced unexercised options or ESPP? Company car? That doesn't sound very professional from the HR rep. And that reflects poorly on the company.
- cvhashim 6y ago
  Unless he works for a public org where salaries are public information (public universities, usually government jobs, etc). It should be difficult to find this information. Private companies already like to keep a tight seal on what they pay so I’m surprised a simple background check can reveal such sensitive information.

kbutler 6y ago

Rather than lying, state "I'm looking for [range]"

scrooched_moose 6y ago
Ideally yes and I play that game as long as I can, but eventually it often comes down to a direct "What is your current salary" question. Responding with "I'm looking for $X-$Y" often isn't an acceptable answer and they continue pushing for current salary. I've noticed it much more in the last 2-3 years, where they absolutely will not continue the process without a current salary, which is when I resort to that made up number.
cashewchoo 6y ago
What exactly could they do to determine you are lying?
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  Nothing :) but many people think "oh what if they know someone on the HR of my current company and they call them up and ask them and they tell them????".
  - hodgesrm 6y ago
    IANAL but in California that sounds like grounds for a lawsuit or even criminal prosecution. (Assuming you found out about it, of course.) See https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB&sectionNum=432.3 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio.... It's pretty clear.
  - comeonseriously 6y ago
    Is that even legal? Most companies have a "yes, that person worked here" policy.
    - HenryBemis 6y ago
      > "yes, that person worked here" 2 reasons to do this: 1) In many (I assume all) countries companies run background checks. When I claim that I have worked for 10 years as role-XYZ in company-ABC, they need to somehow verify this claim. The (closed) question is "Did Henry Bemis worked as role-XYZ in your company for 10y?" And the answer is either Yes/No (or a very slight variation of the asnwer, to clarify the role title (due to traslation or interpretation issues)(i.e. asking in English language for a role in Italy). 2) In Europe (were we get a good number of vacation days) the "next" employer will need some form of verification for your years of work, as the number of vacation days increase depending on the number of years you worked. Different ranges for different countries. Although the "next employer" does have a copy of your CV and can add the years, they should have the assurance that "total of 10 years" is actual "10 years".

etothepii 6y ago

The problem with this approach is that it is fraud. You'll never get charged for it, but it is fraud. It's also not the biggest delta I've heard about while doing user feedback interviews for our salary estimation startup [1]. We had one user who ended up being offered double the salary he was expecting ($300k instead of $150k). He now swears by getting to the magic phrase, "we'd love to have you on board X, we just need to talk about numbers." This single negotiation allowed his wife to stop work and for them to start a family. [1] https://peerwyse.com https://peerwyse.com

WWLink 6y ago
Please show me where this is stated in the law. In California it's definitely illegal for an employer to ask you that information https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2282 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
- etothepii 6y ago
  Just because it illegal to ask a question does not mean answering it dishonestly is not fraudulent. Perhaps there is some argument that as the question should not have been asked the answer can not be material. Many contracts of employment contain a clause allowing summary dismissal if found to have lied during your application.

HenryBemis 6y ago

I never tell them what I am/was making. This information stays with me and my accountant. I then (always) ask them to email me detailed (usually 2-3 pages) job specs. Sometimes they call something "Manager" and it could be a +2 or -2 ranks. It's nomenclature. Different companies go crazy on the titles. After I read the specs, I ask them the range. If they absolutely want to know how much I make, or how much I want, I just bid them farewell. It's probably a shitty company, or it has a shitty HR. Either way, I can always (hope) to find a job in a better place. The asymmetry of information can really f... up your chances to maximize your income. Never give them a number because you enter a negotiation blindfolded. Edit: This has always worked for me.

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

Another alternative to lying is playing the stock comp games companies play. "My comp has a large stock component, and as you know, it's tough to put a dollar number on it. Given current valuation estimates/growth trend/TAM/exit hopes/whatever, I'd estimate my total comp around [the high end of what I think you would consider reasonable]." If they say it's too high, then you can say you might be willing to take a little less, potentially, for more of that to be cash/public liquid options/predictable/stable/whatever.

908B64B197 6y ago
This is actually a great response.
tj-teej 6y ago
+1 to this, lying is never the right move, especially to a company you want to join.

snowwrestler 6y ago

A colleague lost a hire over this. They found a great candidate and was ready to extend an offer once HR completed the background check. HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary. Lying during hiring is a mandatory "no" by company policy; bye-bye candidate. If the candidate had simply declined to disclose previous salary, they almost certainly would have been hired. In general, I would be careful about lying during hiring. Hard to predict the consequences if it is ever discovered. There are plenty of examples of even senior people getting kicked over this sort of thing.

wcerfgba 6y ago
> HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary. How did they find out? I can't imagine they determined this from financial records so I intuit they must have been told by the candidate's previous employer, and if revealing an ex-employee's salary isn't illegal I would have surely thought it was pretty shady / frowned upon.
908B64B197 6y ago
> HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary. Lying during hiring is a mandatory "no" by company policy; bye-bye candidate. What if he simply priced unexercised options or ESPP? Company car? That doesn't sound very professional from the HR rep. And that reflects poorly on the company.
cvhashim 6y ago
Unless he works for a public org where salaries are public information (public universities, usually government jobs, etc). It should be difficult to find this information. Private companies already like to keep a tight seal on what they pay so I’m surprised a simple background check can reveal such sensitive information.