6 ms·

I've had a couple of run-on this front. I spent a couple of years photographing industrial landscapes in London. Unless you are trespassing then you can tell th

by qz2 6y ago

I've had a couple of run-on this front. I spent a couple of years photographing industrial landscapes in London. Unless you are trespassing then you can tell them to hop it. Being arrested wrongfully is quite profitable for the receiver of the arrest and they are usually intimidated by reminding them of that in return.

bigiain 6y ago
> and they are usually intimidated by reminding them of that Would I be wrong to assume you say that from a position of middle class white privilege? (A position I also hold, but from which I have significant empathy with those who do not.) I'm guessing intimidating police by reminding them of the laws they're supposed to uphold works a lot less well for young black kids.
- qz2 6y ago
  Yes on both counts. The latter is a travesty and a very real problem.
- wolco2 6y ago
  I don't think it works well for any race in North America. Unless you are the mayor or some powerful police union boss I see a local beatdown occuring and/or finding a reason for a charge.
- peteretep 6y ago
  The police in the UK are exceptionally unlikely to shoot you, whatever your colour, leaving you free to pursue your wrongful arrest case with a side-order of claiming it was racially motivated via either (mostly) free legal aid or a number of specialist no-win-no-fee lawyers.
- DharmaPolice 6y ago
  >I'm guessing intimidating police by reminding them of the laws they're supposed to uphold works a lot less well for young black kids. Undoubtedly, but there is a power in knowing what and how to say something. I've been arrested and had to sit with three other unrelated individuals for a while, as we waited to be processed. We were all white but I really felt the treatment I received was significantly better than my two fellow arrestees and that was entirely down to not sounding...well, like an idiot. Even asking to read the Police "Codes of Practice" - which is offered automatically - was met with unease (and slight embarrassment) because it's apparently rare for people to say yes to that and they didn't have it to hand immediately. You can call this a class benefit but I certainly wasn't dressed in a middle class manner (which is possibly why I was stopped initially) and my accent is fairly typical for South East London.
  - bigiain 6y ago
    Yeah, I'm a motorcycle sports bike rider, so the police are my <David Attenborough voice>natural enemy... It's kinda well known amongst my riding peers that some people "fail the attitude test" and end up way worse off than people who're at least polite and businesslike when pulled over. I've rarely "talked my way out of a ticket", but I've watched people talk themselves into 3 or 4 serious tickets where they could have "settled" for just the one relatively minor they deserved. (I _did_ managed to escape without a ticket in San Francisco once, doing 100mph past a cop car on the Bay Bridge on a borrowed noisy piped Honda VTR1000 with a girl on the back wearing a blindingly white pure muppet fur jacket and a big fluffy glow-in-the-dark tule tutu. The cop car didn't trigger my normally well honed "cop radar" because in my head it was just a "movie cop car", not a real Australian Ford/Holden mortal enemy carrying sedan with our local highway patrol markings, so I just kinda obliviously cruised past him in fairly light 2am traffic into town. He light up his disco lights so I pulled over at the nearest exit, pulled my helmet off to reveal a grey-beard most likely older than his dad, and said in my broadest and fairly exaggerated Aussie accent "G'Day mate!" and told him "I was only doing about 100!" to which he said "Miles, you're not driving in kilometres now", and let me go with a warning to "ride safe, OK?" Pretty sure that was part middle aged white privilege combined with "way too much paperwork booking an Australian", with a little but of "Australians? We _love_ you guys!" cultural luck thrown in for good measure... But I'll take that rare win against them :-) )
    - brokenmachine 6y ago
      Hopefully next time you're riding recklessly and putting other lives in danger, which it sounds like you do often, they throw the book at you.
      - bigiain 6y ago
        I totally get that some people won't agree with me here... To me, the rules are "advisory" and attempt to accomplish the actual social contract goal of "keeping other road users safe". The intended goal is safety - the rules codify more or less effective practices to achieve that goal. The rules are inevitably fairly blunt instruments setting limitations based on generalisations or lowest common denominator assumptions. A semi trailer doing 50 has a much greater risk of endangering other road users than a motorcycle doing 100. The bike has shorter stopping distances, better manoeuvrability, can evade other vehicles through much smaller gaps - and most importantly a motorcycle rider has a significantly higher motivation to "not get it wrong" due to the enormously higher risk of self injury in any accident. Car/truck driver mostly need to deal with insurance companies. I need to deal with being turned into road jam. Assuming I was being "reckless" or "putting other lives in danger" because I was doing 100 in fairly light 2am Bay Bridge traffic (which was all doing 80 or so anyway) screams of mindlessly adhering to rules without any concern for the goals of the rules and the desired outcomes. I'm most likely overestimating my own skill and safety, because everybody does - even people who understand that everybody does, but I've got about a million km of motorcycle riding over 30 years during which I've injured _zero_ other people to back up my side of this argument. I also totally accept the fact that my disregard to being a stickler to the rules means one day I may "get the book thrown at me". I'd also point out that the cop in the incident recounted above should (and would) have done so if he considered me to be "riding recklessly and putting other lives in danger", and he chose not to. Apart from the Treasure Island entrances/exits, the Bay Bridge has no intersections or driveways where unexpected vehicles might enter, has great sightlines to see slow or stationary traffic from long long distances, and often has traffic flowing at 70 or 80. There are definitely times/places on that bridge where doing 100 is clearly not "reckless" - although I totally understand some people's subjective opinion of reckless is no doubt different to mine, and the minisucle increase in risk to there road users of a motorcycle moving through light traffic at 20mph faster than everyone else on that stretch of road could for some people cross over into recklessness. (I also admit I have a somewhat risk-happy personality, and view a lot of things differently to my more risk averse friends. I would be astounded to discover my personality trait there was not shared by a majority of HN readers. You don't dream of starting or working for "swing for the fences" disruptive startups if you're a rules stickler. Maybe my "enjoy riding fast on the road while accounting for others safety" has crossed over into the Uber-style-evil rules flaunting. I don't think so, but I bet Kalanick doesn't think that either, and he's wrong - so maybe I am too...)

by qz2 6y ago

bigiain 6y ago

> and they are usually intimidated by reminding them of that Would I be wrong to assume you say that from a position of middle class white privilege? (A position I also hold, but from which I have significant empathy with those who do not.) I'm guessing intimidating police by reminding them of the laws they're supposed to uphold works a lot less well for young black kids.

qz2 6y ago
Yes on both counts. The latter is a travesty and a very real problem.
wolco2 6y ago
I don't think it works well for any race in North America. Unless you are the mayor or some powerful police union boss I see a local beatdown occuring and/or finding a reason for a charge.
peteretep 6y ago
The police in the UK are exceptionally unlikely to shoot you, whatever your colour, leaving you free to pursue your wrongful arrest case with a side-order of claiming it was racially motivated via either (mostly) free legal aid or a number of specialist no-win-no-fee lawyers.
DharmaPolice 6y ago
>I'm guessing intimidating police by reminding them of the laws they're supposed to uphold works a lot less well for young black kids. Undoubtedly, but there is a power in knowing what and how to say something. I've been arrested and had to sit with three other unrelated individuals for a while, as we waited to be processed. We were all white but I really felt the treatment I received was significantly better than my two fellow arrestees and that was entirely down to not sounding...well, like an idiot. Even asking to read the Police "Codes of Practice" - which is offered automatically - was met with unease (and slight embarrassment) because it's apparently rare for people to say yes to that and they didn't have it to hand immediately. You can call this a class benefit but I certainly wasn't dressed in a middle class manner (which is possibly why I was stopped initially) and my accent is fairly typical for South East London.
- bigiain 6y ago
  Yeah, I'm a motorcycle sports bike rider, so the police are my <David Attenborough voice>natural enemy... It's kinda well known amongst my riding peers that some people "fail the attitude test" and end up way worse off than people who're at least polite and businesslike when pulled over. I've rarely "talked my way out of a ticket", but I've watched people talk themselves into 3 or 4 serious tickets where they could have "settled" for just the one relatively minor they deserved. (I _did_ managed to escape without a ticket in San Francisco once, doing 100mph past a cop car on the Bay Bridge on a borrowed noisy piped Honda VTR1000 with a girl on the back wearing a blindingly white pure muppet fur jacket and a big fluffy glow-in-the-dark tule tutu. The cop car didn't trigger my normally well honed "cop radar" because in my head it was just a "movie cop car", not a real Australian Ford/Holden mortal enemy carrying sedan with our local highway patrol markings, so I just kinda obliviously cruised past him in fairly light 2am traffic into town. He light up his disco lights so I pulled over at the nearest exit, pulled my helmet off to reveal a grey-beard most likely older than his dad, and said in my broadest and fairly exaggerated Aussie accent "G'Day mate!" and told him "I was only doing about 100!" to which he said "Miles, you're not driving in kilometres now", and let me go with a warning to "ride safe, OK?" Pretty sure that was part middle aged white privilege combined with "way too much paperwork booking an Australian", with a little but of "Australians? We _love_ you guys!" cultural luck thrown in for good measure... But I'll take that rare win against them :-) )
  - brokenmachine 6y ago
    Hopefully next time you're riding recklessly and putting other lives in danger, which it sounds like you do often, they throw the book at you.
    - bigiain 6y ago
      I totally get that some people won't agree with me here... To me, the rules are "advisory" and attempt to accomplish the actual social contract goal of "keeping other road users safe". The intended goal is safety - the rules codify more or less effective practices to achieve that goal. The rules are inevitably fairly blunt instruments setting limitations based on generalisations or lowest common denominator assumptions. A semi trailer doing 50 has a much greater risk of endangering other road users than a motorcycle doing 100. The bike has shorter stopping distances, better manoeuvrability, can evade other vehicles through much smaller gaps - and most importantly a motorcycle rider has a significantly higher motivation to "not get it wrong" due to the enormously higher risk of self injury in any accident. Car/truck driver mostly need to deal with insurance companies. I need to deal with being turned into road jam. Assuming I was being "reckless" or "putting other lives in danger" because I was doing 100 in fairly light 2am Bay Bridge traffic (which was all doing 80 or so anyway) screams of mindlessly adhering to rules without any concern for the goals of the rules and the desired outcomes. I'm most likely overestimating my own skill and safety, because everybody does - even people who understand that everybody does, but I've got about a million km of motorcycle riding over 30 years during which I've injured _zero_ other people to back up my side of this argument. I also totally accept the fact that my disregard to being a stickler to the rules means one day I may "get the book thrown at me". I'd also point out that the cop in the incident recounted above should (and would) have done so if he considered me to be "riding recklessly and putting other lives in danger", and he chose not to. Apart from the Treasure Island entrances/exits, the Bay Bridge has no intersections or driveways where unexpected vehicles might enter, has great sightlines to see slow or stationary traffic from long long distances, and often has traffic flowing at 70 or 80. There are definitely times/places on that bridge where doing 100 is clearly not "reckless" - although I totally understand some people's subjective opinion of reckless is no doubt different to mine, and the minisucle increase in risk to there road users of a motorcycle moving through light traffic at 20mph faster than everyone else on that stretch of road could for some people cross over into recklessness. (I also admit I have a somewhat risk-happy personality, and view a lot of things differently to my more risk averse friends. I would be astounded to discover my personality trait there was not shared by a majority of HN readers. You don't dream of starting or working for "swing for the fences" disruptive startups if you're a rules stickler. Maybe my "enjoy riding fast on the road while accounting for others safety" has crossed over into the Uber-style-evil rules flaunting. I don't think so, but I bet Kalanick doesn't think that either, and he's wrong - so maybe I am too...)