5 ms·

On paper, sure. When you're face to face with your interviewer and they ask you point blank, and you say "It's against the law for you to ask this", guess who's

On paper, sure. When you're face to face with your interviewer and they ask you point blank, and you say "It's against the law for you to ask this", guess who's not getting a callback?

felipelemos 6y ago
This is a good indicator that you are interviewing for wrong company.
chowned 6y ago
Someone with high enough standards to not work for companies that blatantly break laws?
threeqhan 6y ago
They can have fun hiring juniors without experience then
- drdeadringer 6y ago
  I've just realized a question//concern: Is there any healthy place or way or method "juniors" can learn through experience without being screwed over? Be it low money, blood money, poor experience, terrible managers ... is "let the vile companies get the fresh graduates" the best answer here? What can be the alternative here? [Edit:] Not everywhere has mentors. In my experience, mentors are a luxury. Saying "but mentors" isn't an end-all True answer. Same thing for Internships -- not all College Universities require them. Maybe I am in a personal moral or ethical crisis here, but at the moment I'd like to stand by this line of question.
  - threeqhan 6y ago
    I don't think it's as big a problem, first because everyone will have bad experiences at some point and that's a growth opportunity in and of itself. Secondly because good candidates are apprehensive about bad companies regardless of their experience level. And frankly the market is competitive enough that you can always quit a bad job to find a better one, if you're qualified.
    - cushychicken 6y ago
      > everyone will have bad experiences at some point and that's a growth opportunity in and of itself. That's a really great point to bring up. Lousy professional experiences are opportunities to learn, or grow. Doesn't make them fun, but it does make them valuable. >good candidates are apprehensive about bad companies regardless of their experience level. I'm not certain this is true. There are plenty of smart, motivated people who don't necessarily have the career experience to notice red flags at a potentially negative employer.
  - cushychicken 6y ago
    >Is there any healthy place or way or method "juniors" can learn through experience without being screwed over? That's a great question. I agree that mentors aren't the catch-all answer. I will say, though, having been on both sides of the mentorship divide, that a good mentor is a powerful positive force in your career. Doesn't change the fact that it only gets you so far. When it comes to money, I'm afraid there isn't a whole lot junior technical candidates can do to get more. In my experience, technical experience and negotiating leverage are the two surest paths to getting paid more. Junior engineers straight out of college have neither of these things. Jobs beget negotiating leverage. If you have a job, a new job has to give you a better deal to convince you to leap. That's something that a fresh college graduate, inconveniently, lacks. There seems to be a lot of advice here that suggests taking the best job you can straight out of school, and then switching jobs as soon as you reasonably can. That's what I did - I spent a year at a big chip company, decided it wasn't for me, and left for a consumer electronics company. That one year of credible work experience netted me a ~30% raise on switching.
heavyset_go 6y ago
If they already broke the law in an interview, what other laws are they breaking and are you willing to take a chance to be a scapegoat if they get caught?
biztos 6y ago
I don’t advocate lying, but in that case at least in California I think it’d be safe to give them any number you feel is useful. After all, this is a moment of negotiation, not a moment of establishing facts, and they have already told you they’re playing loose. [Edit] To be clear, I would break off the interview instead of playing that game, but I have the good fortune to have a lot of offers. As others have said, it’s a big red flag. But if you’re stuck with it...
cushychicken 6y ago
I was asked "What's your expectation around salary?" in an interview once, in MA, and then asked "Isn't it illegal for you to ask me that?" She replied: "It's illegal for me to ask anything about your salary history. It's not illegal to ask about your expectations." A rose by any other name, though...
- eli 6y ago
  That interviewer sounds a little rude, but... I think I agree with them. Those are materially different questions. If I think I've been underpaid in the past, I can just start naming a new salary expectation but I can't rewrite my salary history. In any event, I think it's also always OK for the applicant to say "I'd rather not say."
  - lsb 6y ago
    They are technically different questions, but think for a moment about what the speaker is trying to achieve. This is not talking with a friend, making pleasantries. This is at work, getting paid, by a company, to learn how low an offer they can make for it to be accepted. Pretending that the conversation is anything except that, is serving the interests of companies who try to do exactly that. Telling someone that what they perceive is not what it is, that what others can perceive is not what it is, is like flickering the lights on and off, and saying nothing is wrong, and asking why someone is so upset.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    I think that intentions matter when it comes to the law and questions like this.
  - cushychicken 6y ago
    She wasn't rude at all - or even incorrect, for that matter. I've since followed up with HR professionals and even one lawyer: there was nothing illegal about her question. My point was that there is still plenty of space within the bounds of law and politeness for you to compromise your negotiating position to a prospective employer. That's all. : )
lsb 6y ago
What sort of company behavior do you think you'd see there after you get hired? Seems like no callback = dodging a bullet

On paper, sure. When you're face to face with your interviewer and they ask you point blank, and you say "It's against the law for you to ask this", guess who's not getting a callback?

felipelemos 6y ago

This is a good indicator that you are interviewing for wrong company.

chowned 6y ago

Someone with high enough standards to not work for companies that blatantly break laws?

threeqhan 6y ago

They can have fun hiring juniors without experience then

drdeadringer 6y ago
I've just realized a question//concern: Is there any healthy place or way or method "juniors" can learn through experience without being screwed over? Be it low money, blood money, poor experience, terrible managers ... is "let the vile companies get the fresh graduates" the best answer here? What can be the alternative here? [Edit:] Not everywhere has mentors. In my experience, mentors are a luxury. Saying "but mentors" isn't an end-all True answer. Same thing for Internships -- not all College Universities require them. Maybe I am in a personal moral or ethical crisis here, but at the moment I'd like to stand by this line of question.
- threeqhan 6y ago
  I don't think it's as big a problem, first because everyone will have bad experiences at some point and that's a growth opportunity in and of itself. Secondly because good candidates are apprehensive about bad companies regardless of their experience level. And frankly the market is competitive enough that you can always quit a bad job to find a better one, if you're qualified.
  - cushychicken 6y ago
    > everyone will have bad experiences at some point and that's a growth opportunity in and of itself. That's a really great point to bring up. Lousy professional experiences are opportunities to learn, or grow. Doesn't make them fun, but it does make them valuable. >good candidates are apprehensive about bad companies regardless of their experience level. I'm not certain this is true. There are plenty of smart, motivated people who don't necessarily have the career experience to notice red flags at a potentially negative employer.
- cushychicken 6y ago
  >Is there any healthy place or way or method "juniors" can learn through experience without being screwed over? That's a great question. I agree that mentors aren't the catch-all answer. I will say, though, having been on both sides of the mentorship divide, that a good mentor is a powerful positive force in your career. Doesn't change the fact that it only gets you so far. When it comes to money, I'm afraid there isn't a whole lot junior technical candidates can do to get more. In my experience, technical experience and negotiating leverage are the two surest paths to getting paid more. Junior engineers straight out of college have neither of these things. Jobs beget negotiating leverage. If you have a job, a new job has to give you a better deal to convince you to leap. That's something that a fresh college graduate, inconveniently, lacks. There seems to be a lot of advice here that suggests taking the best job you can straight out of school, and then switching jobs as soon as you reasonably can. That's what I did - I spent a year at a big chip company, decided it wasn't for me, and left for a consumer electronics company. That one year of credible work experience netted me a ~30% raise on switching.

heavyset_go 6y ago

If they already broke the law in an interview, what other laws are they breaking and are you willing to take a chance to be a scapegoat if they get caught?

biztos 6y ago

I don’t advocate lying, but in that case at least in California I think it’d be safe to give them any number you feel is useful. After all, this is a moment of negotiation, not a moment of establishing facts, and they have already told you they’re playing loose. [Edit] To be clear, I would break off the interview instead of playing that game, but I have the good fortune to have a lot of offers. As others have said, it’s a big red flag. But if you’re stuck with it...

cushychicken 6y ago

I was asked "What's your expectation around salary?" in an interview once, in MA, and then asked "Isn't it illegal for you to ask me that?" She replied: "It's illegal for me to ask anything about your salary history. It's not illegal to ask about your expectations." A rose by any other name, though...

eli 6y ago
That interviewer sounds a little rude, but... I think I agree with them. Those are materially different questions. If I think I've been underpaid in the past, I can just start naming a new salary expectation but I can't rewrite my salary history. In any event, I think it's also always OK for the applicant to say "I'd rather not say."
- lsb 6y ago
  They are technically different questions, but think for a moment about what the speaker is trying to achieve. This is not talking with a friend, making pleasantries. This is at work, getting paid, by a company, to learn how low an offer they can make for it to be accepted. Pretending that the conversation is anything except that, is serving the interests of companies who try to do exactly that. Telling someone that what they perceive is not what it is, that what others can perceive is not what it is, is like flickering the lights on and off, and saying nothing is wrong, and asking why someone is so upset.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  I think that intentions matter when it comes to the law and questions like this.
- cushychicken 6y ago
  She wasn't rude at all - or even incorrect, for that matter. I've since followed up with HR professionals and even one lawyer: there was nothing illegal about her question. My point was that there is still plenty of space within the bounds of law and politeness for you to compromise your negotiating position to a prospective employer. That's all. : )

lsb 6y ago

What sort of company behavior do you think you'd see there after you get hired? Seems like no callback = dodging a bullet