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This is not my experience in the US. Culture wars have invaded both work and family life. It's not a tiny minority, it's many, if not most, Americans. I feel s

This is not my experience in the US. Culture wars have invaded both work and family life. It's not a tiny minority, it's many, if not most, Americans. I feel sure most Americans have the same experience, but perhaps I'm an outlier?

standardUser 6y ago
I'm curious how culture wars have impacted your work and family life. I've lived most of my life in large metro areas, so from my perspective "culture wars" are mostly people in far away towns waving fists at us city folk. The actual impact on my life is minimal.
- stale2002 6y ago
  The way that this usually effects people's personal lifes, is when there are individuals who care way to much about abstract politics, turn it into a moral cursade, and think that if you don't agree with them on every single issue then this is some huge judgment on you as a person. Basically, it is with us or against us mentality. Even not having an opinion on some abstract idea, means that you are therefore a perpetrator of this moral wrong. Not caring about politics is often the worst sin that you can commit to those people, no matter what other actions you have taken in your personal life regarding them or the community. This is less common in person, and more common with individuals who have arguments with their "friends" on Facebook and the like. Anyone who makes a post like "If you don't agree with me on X, then unfriend me, as I don't want any people like you in my life!"
  - gsk22 6y ago
    Apathy and centrism are friends of evil governance everywhere. To quote Howard Zinn (even if you disagree with his politics - it applies to both sides of the aisle): "You can't be neutral on a moving train. Events are already moving in certain deadly directions, and to be neutral means to accept that." Being "above" politics is not a virtue when the politics in question are harmful - thus, the "moral crusade".
    - monoideism 6y ago
      Ok, fine if hold that viewpoint, but don't gaslight us that nothing new is going on. Politics has invaded everything, and it wasn't like this even 10 years ago.
      - gsk22 6y ago
        Disagreeing with your assessment is not gaslighting. I do agree America is more politicized now, but that doesn't mean the answer is to retreat into a shell and pretend the issues don't exist.
        monoideism 6y ago
        > I do agree America is more politicized now, OK, then please don't play this "what culture war?", as if you have no idea what we're talking about. That's debating in bad faith. I'd not do that to you.
        gsk22 6y ago
        Honestly, I don't know what you're on about. The term "culture war" is extremely vague and with an obvious negative connotation, but as far as I can tell you're simply complaining that politics are more visible in everyday life. Can you succinctly define what makes a "culture war", and how that is different from political debate?
        monoideism 6y ago
        OK, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war#Broadening_of_the_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war#Broadening_of_the_... Specifically, stuff like QAnon, facemask protests, BLM, trans rights, "white privilege", anthem protests, etc etc etc. There's pretty widespread recognition in the US of culture war flashpoints. But before I engage anymore: are you American? Because we're discussing these political topics in the US context in this thread, explicitly.
  - standardUser 6y ago
    "If you don't agree with me on X, then unfriend me, as I don't want any people like you in my life!" Most of those comments I have seen are specifically related to racism. For example, an individual will state that "if you don't support Black lives, unfriend me". I fail to find fault with that. Can you explain why it is problematic for someone to want to distance themselves socially from people that are opting-in to oppose a modern civil rights movement? I would certainly do the same with anyone who opposed the right of Women to vote, or gay people to marry.
    - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
      The amplification of identity through the capitalization of Black and Women is dangerous, tribal, and counterproductive in a collaborative environment. Plus, the phrase "if you don't support Black lives" is in the context of the Black Lives Matter movement, a group who has led riots all throughout the country. I'm not saying they didn't do so for a good reason. I'm saying it's not black-or-white, yet people who make such posts make it black-or-white.
- monoideism 6y ago
  You live in a large metro area where beliefs are fairly uniform. It would be understandable if you share those beliefs that you wouldn't have any disagreements, right? And I'm not sharing with HN the details of my family and workplace discussions, sorry. But maybe someone else here will be willing to. If you don't believe me, then that's OK, that's up to you. Edit: I mean, the media even covers the near constant revolts of activist employees at Facebook, Twitter, Coinbase, and many other tech companies. Do you want me to find you some articles? Is this new to you?
  - standardUser 6y ago
    "If you don't believe me, then that's OK, that's up to you." I didn't say, suggest or imply that I didn't believe you. I stated my alternative experience and asked for more information about yours. "the media even covers the near constant revolts of activist employees" From what I see, those are arguments between people who believe in Thing A very strongly and want to act on it and people who also believe in Thing A but would rather not make a huge fuss about it. But the number of people who don't believe Thing A, in the extremely diverse and heavily populated areas I have lived in, are very tiny. For example, I almost never encounter people who think we should censor sex more, or ban abortion, or not fight racism or oppose police oppression, or that we should in any way oppose LGBTQ rights, or enforce religious ideology on the public sphere, etc.
    - nikitaga 6y ago
      Step 1: "if you don't support Black lives, unfriend me" (a sentiment you agree with, from your other comment in this thread) Step 2: "I almost never encounter people who think we should [...] not fight racism" You're free to exclude anyone you don't like from your friends – it's your life. But if you do this, maybe don't use the fact that your bubble doesn't have anyone who thinks differently from you as evidence of there being very few people out there who disagree with you on such things?
      - standardUser 6y ago
        My so-called "bubble" includes dozens of uniquely massive metros that represent hundreds of millions of people. They drive, and historically have driven, most advances in art, culture, innovation and economic output. So it's not like I'm living in some remote backwater getting my news from obscure blogs. I'm up in the mix. As far as the current movement that aims to of change policy and perspectives to better protect and respect Black lives, I would point out that the supporting any given civil right movement, at any time in any culture, when viewed from a few decades distance, has a nearly flawless track record. Can you name a couple historic movements that had the goal of expanding rights or ending oppression that you, today, would oppose?
gsk22 6y ago
How has this so-called culture war invaded your family life?
- da39a3ee 6y ago
  I (late 30s) am unable to talk to younger members (late 20s) of my family about science in western society because they believe that academic science is inherently corrupted by patriarchal and racist power structures, whereas I believe that there is no need to be anywhere near so cynical about academic science and that it is in fact one of the areas of society that we can be proud of. The younger members have grown up taught by many university professors who have pushed postmodernist, power-structure analyses in any different subject areas, to the extent that they find it more important to think of science from the sort of postmodernist cultural theory point of view, than to actually think about the science itself.
  - 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
    I'm more your age but I think I agree with your family members here. Thinking about the technical details of science is not very important to lay people like me. But the cultural questions involved like who is doing science? for what reasons? under what constraints? what practical applications are there and who will they be applied to? Those potentially matter quite a bit to me. Sounds like your family are attempting to be active and well-informed and have chosen to become informed in a part of the domain where they can have useful opinions, rather than a part where they can't.
    - da39a3ee 6y ago
      > I think I agree with your family members here. Thinking about the technical details of science is not very important to lay people like me. It's not just the "technical details". It's the entire scientific outlook and scientific method! We all agree that building the fair and healthy societies that we want is a very hard task. So when we have hard tasks to do, we don't want to turn away from a scientific/engineering mentality, quite the opposite! For example, we see that we have a lot of unfairness in society that we want to fix. Perhaps studying game theory and mathematical economics would allow you to contribute to human efforts to create incentive structures and legislation that will promote fairness. Presumably studying statistics and decision theory will help understand the challenges we face as a society needing to make decisions in the face of uncertainty and complex costs. But studying these things is HARD; it requires effort over a long time span to climb the mountain. It does NOT help at all if young people are encouraged to mill around at the base of the mountain wittering about power structures and unfairness in academia.
da39a3ee 6y ago
Yes, as someone with university-educated friends and families in large cities, the recent surge of intolerance of more centrist views on the identity-politics left are tearing apart both my friend and family groups.
jimmyjazz14 6y ago
I have not had this experience at all personally. Then again I tend to just stay neutral when such subjects come up, though its rare that they do.

standardUser 6y ago

I'm curious how culture wars have impacted your work and family life. I've lived most of my life in large metro areas, so from my perspective "culture wars" are mostly people in far away towns waving fists at us city folk. The actual impact on my life is minimal.

stale2002 6y ago
The way that this usually effects people's personal lifes, is when there are individuals who care way to much about abstract politics, turn it into a moral cursade, and think that if you don't agree with them on every single issue then this is some huge judgment on you as a person. Basically, it is with us or against us mentality. Even not having an opinion on some abstract idea, means that you are therefore a perpetrator of this moral wrong. Not caring about politics is often the worst sin that you can commit to those people, no matter what other actions you have taken in your personal life regarding them or the community. This is less common in person, and more common with individuals who have arguments with their "friends" on Facebook and the like. Anyone who makes a post like "If you don't agree with me on X, then unfriend me, as I don't want any people like you in my life!"
- gsk22 6y ago
  Apathy and centrism are friends of evil governance everywhere. To quote Howard Zinn (even if you disagree with his politics - it applies to both sides of the aisle): "You can't be neutral on a moving train. Events are already moving in certain deadly directions, and to be neutral means to accept that." Being "above" politics is not a virtue when the politics in question are harmful - thus, the "moral crusade".
  - monoideism 6y ago
    Ok, fine if hold that viewpoint, but don't gaslight us that nothing new is going on. Politics has invaded everything, and it wasn't like this even 10 years ago.
    - gsk22 6y ago
      Disagreeing with your assessment is not gaslighting. I do agree America is more politicized now, but that doesn't mean the answer is to retreat into a shell and pretend the issues don't exist.
      - monoideism 6y ago
        > I do agree America is more politicized now, OK, then please don't play this "what culture war?", as if you have no idea what we're talking about. That's debating in bad faith. I'd not do that to you.
        gsk22 6y ago
        Honestly, I don't know what you're on about. The term "culture war" is extremely vague and with an obvious negative connotation, but as far as I can tell you're simply complaining that politics are more visible in everyday life. Can you succinctly define what makes a "culture war", and how that is different from political debate?
        monoideism 6y ago
        OK, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war#Broadening_of_the_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war#Broadening_of_the_... Specifically, stuff like QAnon, facemask protests, BLM, trans rights, "white privilege", anthem protests, etc etc etc. There's pretty widespread recognition in the US of culture war flashpoints. But before I engage anymore: are you American? Because we're discussing these political topics in the US context in this thread, explicitly.
- standardUser 6y ago
  "If you don't agree with me on X, then unfriend me, as I don't want any people like you in my life!" Most of those comments I have seen are specifically related to racism. For example, an individual will state that "if you don't support Black lives, unfriend me". I fail to find fault with that. Can you explain why it is problematic for someone to want to distance themselves socially from people that are opting-in to oppose a modern civil rights movement? I would certainly do the same with anyone who opposed the right of Women to vote, or gay people to marry.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    The amplification of identity through the capitalization of Black and Women is dangerous, tribal, and counterproductive in a collaborative environment. Plus, the phrase "if you don't support Black lives" is in the context of the Black Lives Matter movement, a group who has led riots all throughout the country. I'm not saying they didn't do so for a good reason. I'm saying it's not black-or-white, yet people who make such posts make it black-or-white.
monoideism 6y ago
You live in a large metro area where beliefs are fairly uniform. It would be understandable if you share those beliefs that you wouldn't have any disagreements, right? And I'm not sharing with HN the details of my family and workplace discussions, sorry. But maybe someone else here will be willing to. If you don't believe me, then that's OK, that's up to you. Edit: I mean, the media even covers the near constant revolts of activist employees at Facebook, Twitter, Coinbase, and many other tech companies. Do you want me to find you some articles? Is this new to you?
- standardUser 6y ago
  "If you don't believe me, then that's OK, that's up to you." I didn't say, suggest or imply that I didn't believe you. I stated my alternative experience and asked for more information about yours. "the media even covers the near constant revolts of activist employees" From what I see, those are arguments between people who believe in Thing A very strongly and want to act on it and people who also believe in Thing A but would rather not make a huge fuss about it. But the number of people who don't believe Thing A, in the extremely diverse and heavily populated areas I have lived in, are very tiny. For example, I almost never encounter people who think we should censor sex more, or ban abortion, or not fight racism or oppose police oppression, or that we should in any way oppose LGBTQ rights, or enforce religious ideology on the public sphere, etc.
  - nikitaga 6y ago
    Step 1: "if you don't support Black lives, unfriend me" (a sentiment you agree with, from your other comment in this thread) Step 2: "I almost never encounter people who think we should [...] not fight racism" You're free to exclude anyone you don't like from your friends – it's your life. But if you do this, maybe don't use the fact that your bubble doesn't have anyone who thinks differently from you as evidence of there being very few people out there who disagree with you on such things?
    - standardUser 6y ago
      My so-called "bubble" includes dozens of uniquely massive metros that represent hundreds of millions of people. They drive, and historically have driven, most advances in art, culture, innovation and economic output. So it's not like I'm living in some remote backwater getting my news from obscure blogs. I'm up in the mix. As far as the current movement that aims to of change policy and perspectives to better protect and respect Black lives, I would point out that the supporting any given civil right movement, at any time in any culture, when viewed from a few decades distance, has a nearly flawless track record. Can you name a couple historic movements that had the goal of expanding rights or ending oppression that you, today, would oppose?

gsk22 6y ago

How has this so-called culture war invaded your family life?

da39a3ee 6y ago
I (late 30s) am unable to talk to younger members (late 20s) of my family about science in western society because they believe that academic science is inherently corrupted by patriarchal and racist power structures, whereas I believe that there is no need to be anywhere near so cynical about academic science and that it is in fact one of the areas of society that we can be proud of. The younger members have grown up taught by many university professors who have pushed postmodernist, power-structure analyses in any different subject areas, to the extent that they find it more important to think of science from the sort of postmodernist cultural theory point of view, than to actually think about the science itself.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
  I'm more your age but I think I agree with your family members here. Thinking about the technical details of science is not very important to lay people like me. But the cultural questions involved like who is doing science? for what reasons? under what constraints? what practical applications are there and who will they be applied to? Those potentially matter quite a bit to me. Sounds like your family are attempting to be active and well-informed and have chosen to become informed in a part of the domain where they can have useful opinions, rather than a part where they can't.
  - da39a3ee 6y ago
    > I think I agree with your family members here. Thinking about the technical details of science is not very important to lay people like me. It's not just the "technical details". It's the entire scientific outlook and scientific method! We all agree that building the fair and healthy societies that we want is a very hard task. So when we have hard tasks to do, we don't want to turn away from a scientific/engineering mentality, quite the opposite! For example, we see that we have a lot of unfairness in society that we want to fix. Perhaps studying game theory and mathematical economics would allow you to contribute to human efforts to create incentive structures and legislation that will promote fairness. Presumably studying statistics and decision theory will help understand the challenges we face as a society needing to make decisions in the face of uncertainty and complex costs. But studying these things is HARD; it requires effort over a long time span to climb the mountain. It does NOT help at all if young people are encouraged to mill around at the base of the mountain wittering about power structures and unfairness in academia.

da39a3ee 6y ago

Yes, as someone with university-educated friends and families in large cities, the recent surge of intolerance of more centrist views on the identity-politics left are tearing apart both my friend and family groups.

jimmyjazz14 6y ago

I have not had this experience at all personally. Then again I tend to just stay neutral when such subjects come up, though its rare that they do.