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> [They] did the same for Antifa though, so at least they are somewhat consistent. I don't think this is a coherent statement. Antifa isn't an organization. T

> [They] did the same for Antifa though, so at least they are somewhat consistent. I don't think this is a coherent statement. Antifa isn't an organization. The Proud Boys definitely is. If you're not familiar with the Proud Boys, this is a good introductory video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZMWQDvZQZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZMWQDvZQZs

umvi 6y ago
> Antifa isn't an organization Maybe not with centralized governance like Proud Boys, but PayPal definitely cut off payment processing for "Antifa Sacramento" and "Atlanta Antifascists" last year, I remember reading about it...
- JacobSuperslav 6y ago
  I know it's difficult to comprehend but: Antifa is not an organization while "Antifa Sacramento" might be an organization.
kypro 6y ago
> Antifa isn't an organization. They have spokes people, a uniform, unified political beliefs, and meet through organised events. I suspect the only reason they claim not to be an organisation is because they don't want to be label a terror organisation. Either way, how they choose to organise should be completely irrelevant here. If Antifa decided they were an organisation tomorrow and The Proud Boys put out a statement saying they're no longer an organisation should PayPal reverse their stance?
- metamet 6y ago
  > I suspect the only reason they claim not to be an organisation is because they don't want to be label a terror organisation. I suspect it's because there is no "they". All the antifa-in-the-name orgs are just loosely connected groups that espouse similar ideology. There is no Gavin or Enrique for "antifa".
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > unified political beliefs No, they don't. As with many extreme movements, people calling themselves Antifa are a group of people of similar but nevertheless disparate outlooks, united through the principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Were Antifa to prevail over their ideological adversaries, one could expect them to then immediately descend into savage infighting, just like most other historical revolutions have. Nor would a uniform mean that there is a united organization. Within the world of splintered Marxist parties, there is a long tradition of different groups maintaining the same aesthetic style, while nevertheless branding each other as heretical and not real communists.
- olefoo 6y ago
  Your ideological sophistication is questionable. If you've ever spent time in left discourse you'd know that leftists argue about everything. And it's not just leftists who hate fascists. It's pretty much anybody with a basic understanding of the history of the last century. Fascism wants to start up the murder machine; and they'll tell you that it's to "purify" the nation and they'll try to present it in such a way that you think it's only "bad, dirty, disgusting" people who will be fed into it. But in the end the murder-machine will be turned against anyone and everyone until it is stopped. The scenarios that apply to this country look less like Europe in the 1930's and more like Syria with a side of Rwanda.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    The problem with modern Antifa is that the definition of "fascist" is becoming so loose and so unhinged from historical context that it is meaningless. For example, according to many activists claiming to be associated with Antifa, if one believes that trans-rights matters are not a major priority – compared, say, to class issues – that makes one a fascist. Think of the extreme leftists of May 1968, who were fighting against what they saw as insufficiently punished or even resurgent fascism. Since advocating for sexual minorities was not a central part of their struggle (even feminism or gay men’s issues were at the margins), we are supposed to assume that those anti-fascists were themselves fascist. That’s absurd.
    - some_furry 6y ago
      > The problem with modern Antifa is that the definition of "fascist" is becoming so loose and so unhinged from historical context that it is meaningless. I don't buy this narrative. Most of the anti-fascist activists I know adhere to the definition in Ur-Fascism: https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
- teclordphrack2 6y ago
  The reason they are organized is such a dis-organized manner is b/c of the fbi and other state and federal agencys that have historically targeted the left. Can't kill or imprison a groups leaders if it has 100's of heads.
- approxim8ion 6y ago
  They're an organization as much as any decentralized structure can be. Is Mastodon an "organization", and can said imaginary "Mastodon" organization, or Rochko and any contributors to the project anyway be held liable for the goings-on in individual instances that are meant to be autonomous by design?

umvi 6y ago

> Antifa isn't an organization Maybe not with centralized governance like Proud Boys, but PayPal definitely cut off payment processing for "Antifa Sacramento" and "Atlanta Antifascists" last year, I remember reading about it...

JacobSuperslav 6y ago
I know it's difficult to comprehend but: Antifa is not an organization while "Antifa Sacramento" might be an organization.

kypro 6y ago

> Antifa isn't an organization. They have spokes people, a uniform, unified political beliefs, and meet through organised events. I suspect the only reason they claim not to be an organisation is because they don't want to be label a terror organisation. Either way, how they choose to organise should be completely irrelevant here. If Antifa decided they were an organisation tomorrow and The Proud Boys put out a statement saying they're no longer an organisation should PayPal reverse their stance?

metamet 6y ago
> I suspect the only reason they claim not to be an organisation is because they don't want to be label a terror organisation. I suspect it's because there is no "they". All the antifa-in-the-name orgs are just loosely connected groups that espouse similar ideology. There is no Gavin or Enrique for "antifa".
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
> unified political beliefs No, they don't. As with many extreme movements, people calling themselves Antifa are a group of people of similar but nevertheless disparate outlooks, united through the principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Were Antifa to prevail over their ideological adversaries, one could expect them to then immediately descend into savage infighting, just like most other historical revolutions have. Nor would a uniform mean that there is a united organization. Within the world of splintered Marxist parties, there is a long tradition of different groups maintaining the same aesthetic style, while nevertheless branding each other as heretical and not real communists.
olefoo 6y ago
Your ideological sophistication is questionable. If you've ever spent time in left discourse you'd know that leftists argue about everything. And it's not just leftists who hate fascists. It's pretty much anybody with a basic understanding of the history of the last century. Fascism wants to start up the murder machine; and they'll tell you that it's to "purify" the nation and they'll try to present it in such a way that you think it's only "bad, dirty, disgusting" people who will be fed into it. But in the end the murder-machine will be turned against anyone and everyone until it is stopped. The scenarios that apply to this country look less like Europe in the 1930's and more like Syria with a side of Rwanda.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  The problem with modern Antifa is that the definition of "fascist" is becoming so loose and so unhinged from historical context that it is meaningless. For example, according to many activists claiming to be associated with Antifa, if one believes that trans-rights matters are not a major priority – compared, say, to class issues – that makes one a fascist. Think of the extreme leftists of May 1968, who were fighting against what they saw as insufficiently punished or even resurgent fascism. Since advocating for sexual minorities was not a central part of their struggle (even feminism or gay men’s issues were at the margins), we are supposed to assume that those anti-fascists were themselves fascist. That’s absurd.
  - some_furry 6y ago
    > The problem with modern Antifa is that the definition of "fascist" is becoming so loose and so unhinged from historical context that it is meaningless. I don't buy this narrative. Most of the anti-fascist activists I know adhere to the definition in Ur-Fascism: https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
teclordphrack2 6y ago
The reason they are organized is such a dis-organized manner is b/c of the fbi and other state and federal agencys that have historically targeted the left. Can't kill or imprison a groups leaders if it has 100's of heads.
approxim8ion 6y ago
They're an organization as much as any decentralized structure can be. Is Mastodon an "organization", and can said imaginary "Mastodon" organization, or Rochko and any contributors to the project anyway be held liable for the goings-on in individual instances that are meant to be autonomous by design?