4 ms·

That's because many of us consider freedom of speech to be more important than anti-racism for the simple reason that without freedom of speech, you lose everyt

That's because many of us consider freedom of speech to be more important than anti-racism for the simple reason that without freedom of speech, you lose everything, including anti-racism and all the rest.

mmastrac 6y ago
That's not true at all. Canada has both strong anti-hate-speech laws and a far lesser (though still existant) problem with racism and racial justice overall than the US. Freedom of speech always has limits.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  Canada doesn't really have freedom of speech. Mike Ward faces a $80k fine for making a joke[0]. [0]: https://podtail.com/pt-BR/podcast/wrongspeak/-10-that-s-not-funny-with-mike-ward-and-jamie-kils/ https://podtail.com/pt-BR/podcast/wrongspeak/-10-that-s-not-...
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    And neither does America. This man was arrested for calling his mayor corrupt: https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-hampshire-police-arrested-man-being-mean-them-internet https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-ha... To be honest, I know where most people stand on free speech when I see them saying that we shouldn't allow anyone to call for anyone else to be fired. I think freedom of speech is so important that I will defend to the death your right to ask for me to be fired.
    - throw_m239339 6y ago
      > The police ultimately dropped the charges — after the ACLU of New Hampshire spoke out against Frese’s prosecution. https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-hampshire-police-arrested-man-being-mean-them-internet https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-ha... nobody was prosecuted in that story. The police did abuse their power.
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        Well, no one was prosecuted in PayPal's termination of Epik's account either so I suppose we're good here then.
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  > That's not true at all. Canada has both strong anti-hate-speech laws and a far lesser (though still existant) problem with racism and racial justice overall than the US. Freedom of speech always has limits. Canada also has far less "visible minorities" than USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_origins_of_people_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_origins_of_people_in_Ca...
- rrdharan 6y ago
  > a far lesser ... problem with racism and racial justice overall than the US On what basis are you making that claim? Asking as a Canadian-US dual citizen with 20+ years of lived non-white experience in both countries. I don't think these things are so easy to measure and my experience has largely been that every other country likes to pretend they have fewer race relations problems than the US and the claims largely rest on anecdata and media driven sentiment.
wayoutthere 6y ago
“Freedom of speech” in any meaningful sense has only ever existed for wealthy people (who are historically white male landowners) or those of other classes whose speech is deemed “appropriate” by such gatekeepers. Just look at what happens when employees try to unionize: their employers go to great lengths to silence them, and have spent considerable political capital removing regulations preventing them from doing so. If you have money and power, it’s always been easy to silence speech you don’t like.

mmastrac 6y ago

That's not true at all. Canada has both strong anti-hate-speech laws and a far lesser (though still existant) problem with racism and racial justice overall than the US. Freedom of speech always has limits.

djsumdog 6y ago
Canada doesn't really have freedom of speech. Mike Ward faces a $80k fine for making a joke[0]. [0]: https://podtail.com/pt-BR/podcast/wrongspeak/-10-that-s-not-funny-with-mike-ward-and-jamie-kils/ https://podtail.com/pt-BR/podcast/wrongspeak/-10-that-s-not-...
- renewiltord 6y ago
  And neither does America. This man was arrested for calling his mayor corrupt: https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-hampshire-police-arrested-man-being-mean-them-internet https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-ha... To be honest, I know where most people stand on free speech when I see them saying that we shouldn't allow anyone to call for anyone else to be fired. I think freedom of speech is so important that I will defend to the death your right to ask for me to be fired.
  - throw_m239339 6y ago
    > The police ultimately dropped the charges — after the ACLU of New Hampshire spoke out against Frese’s prosecution. https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-hampshire-police-arrested-man-being-mean-them-internet https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-ha... nobody was prosecuted in that story. The police did abuse their power.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      Well, no one was prosecuted in PayPal's termination of Epik's account either so I suppose we're good here then.
throw_m239339 6y ago
> That's not true at all. Canada has both strong anti-hate-speech laws and a far lesser (though still existant) problem with racism and racial justice overall than the US. Freedom of speech always has limits. Canada also has far less "visible minorities" than USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_origins_of_people_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_origins_of_people_in_Ca...
rrdharan 6y ago
> a far lesser ... problem with racism and racial justice overall than the US On what basis are you making that claim? Asking as a Canadian-US dual citizen with 20+ years of lived non-white experience in both countries. I don't think these things are so easy to measure and my experience has largely been that every other country likes to pretend they have fewer race relations problems than the US and the claims largely rest on anecdata and media driven sentiment.

wayoutthere 6y ago

“Freedom of speech” in any meaningful sense has only ever existed for wealthy people (who are historically white male landowners) or those of other classes whose speech is deemed “appropriate” by such gatekeepers. Just look at what happens when employees try to unionize: their employers go to great lengths to silence them, and have spent considerable political capital removing regulations preventing them from doing so. If you have money and power, it’s always been easy to silence speech you don’t like.