6 ms·

I've used Java and C++ in a few low latency applications and I do prefer Java in certain scenarios. The whole ecosystem around Java makes rapid development easi

by troist 6y ago

I've used Java and C++ in a few low latency applications and I do prefer Java in certain scenarios. The whole ecosystem around Java makes rapid development easier meaning we could make safe changes quicker which is a big benefit in trading systems where you need to react to unpredictable market conditions. The article focuses quite heavily on Zing vs Hotspot but it'd be interesting to see an analysis of a variety of the standard JVMs GC methods (namely Shenandoah). For anyone interested in low latency Java I'd recommend watching some of Martin Thompson's talks on building LMAX and his blog Mechanical Sympathy is a great start too.

oftenwrong 6y ago
>The article focuses quite heavily on Zing vs Hotspot but it'd be interesting to see an analysis of a variety of the standard JVMs GC methods (namely Shenandoah). Also, ZGC, which is considered production-ready in JDK 15.
tormeh 6y ago
If you want something that's as fast as C++, but safer to work with, then there's this new language, has been on HN frontpage once or twice.. I can't remember the name, but I think it had something to do with oxidation of metals.. Something about shellfish as well..
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- fractionalhare 6y ago
  The person you're replying to is almost certainly not using the word "safe" in the same sense you are. In particular: safety in trading has to do with risk management, strategy correlation, side effects, and correctness. Software security matters, in the abstract, but trading firms don't care about it nearly as much as tech companies do. The other thing is that being as fast as C++ is not compelling enough a reason to replace C++ for their use cases. If anything, Rust's dependency management story would be the thing to highlight (this is part of what's compelling about the JVM).
  - jariel 6y ago
    "Software security matters" I think the responder's version of 'safety' really boils down to 'null pointer safety' - not 'software security'. And even then, people keep talking about it like it's 'the thing'. Java has null 'references' as do most languages frankly and it's just 'a thing' almost never 'the thing' to be concerned about. 'What devs want' is basically something kind of like Java, but that compiles, predictable/controllable performance and memory management i.e. no GC. That's it. It will probably end up being Rust, but that's because Rust will eventually provide all the nice, clean, modern package management, idioms, libraries etc., not specifically because of the 'safety'. Granted I don't want to diminish that in the attempt to create 'proper memory management' you probably end up writing better software anyhow.
    - fractionalhare 6y ago
      That's fair. Instead of saying "software security" I should have been more specific in talking about memory and pointer issues. In that sense, yes Rust does offer some safety guarantees beyond preventing memory corruption vulnerabilities.
  - nv-vn 6y ago
    Jane Street famously uses OCaml for these types of guarantees, so I would think Rust would offer similar benefits.
    - fractionalhare 6y ago
      Why would you think that? Rust's major selling point for safety guarantees is the borrow checker. It does not provide most of OCaml's type and functional semantics. That being said: Jane Street is pretty avant garde in this respect. I expect there already is, or soon will be, a successful trading firm which likewise builds its tech brand on Rust and alternatives to Rust standard library primitives. But overall adoption will probably continue to be anemic.
      - tormeh 6y ago
- troebr 6y ago
  I was surprised there was no mention of it in the article. Maybe it's not used commonly in the trading space?
  - fractionalhare 6y ago
    If I said Rust is rarely used in trading I'd be still overstating its adoption. There is approximately no Rust code in buy side finance. It exists in the sense that you could find something written in it somewhere, even it it's just an infra tool used by one of the software engineers. But I would be very surprised to hear of any trading firm that uses it in the hot path.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pjmlp 6y ago
  A language that brings the Gentoo installation experience to external libraries and requires special purpose data structures to compile properly?
  - scaladev 6y ago
    Do you prefer the Linux from Scratch installation experience which C and C++ provide?
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Only for clueless developers that don't know their trade.
- alexeiz 6y ago
  A language that should not be named.
bob1029 6y ago
LMAX Disruptor is a really powerful abstraction if you are trying to build something with consistently-low latency. I've been using a variant in .NET Core for purposes of processing UI events.
- secondcoming 6y ago
  It was very interesting, I ported it to C++. However, I lost interest when the whole thing could lock up if the RingBuffer size was very small yet still a power of two. It also uses sun.misc.Unsafe to do the latency critical aspects, so yes it's Java, but most certainly not vanilla Java.
pron 6y ago
ZGC is at 1-2ms max pause time in JDK 16 and is expected to reach <1ms max pause time within a year.
- ISL 6y ago
  Isn't this architecture dependent? It is hard to imagine the same performance on a Pentium Pro. What is the right processor-independent measure for latencies like this? Number of clock-ticks? That seems flawed, too.
  - walkingolof 6y ago
    Sort of, it you have to have a 64 bit CPU. Here is a more in-depth article on how it works, using pointer coloring. https://www.programmersought.com/article/29543432001/ https://www.programmersought.com/article/29543432001/
blibble 6y ago
where I've worked you avoid triggering the GC by making sure you have enough memory for the entire day's operations with a modern JVM you can even disable it entirely (Epsilon collector)
rokobobo 6y ago
I come from a place that used Java as the main language for its strategies, and the developers' overall sentiment was very close to yours. I saw people comment on the "fast<->smart" continuum, and in this context, I believe they mean smart=computationally intensive. (An extreme example is a stat arb shop running its portfolio optimizer.) But there's another way to gain an edge, which is to iterate quickly on your "fast" algorithms and develop them so they take advantage of opportunities that are only partially exploited by competitors. Java seemed pretty good for that purpose for about a decade. Things like JVM warmup, GC, individual ultra-low-latency responses whenever necessary, were all dealt with after the fact.

by troist 6y ago

oftenwrong 6y ago

>The article focuses quite heavily on Zing vs Hotspot but it'd be interesting to see an analysis of a variety of the standard JVMs GC methods (namely Shenandoah). Also, ZGC, which is considered production-ready in JDK 15.

tormeh 6y ago

If you want something that's as fast as C++, but safer to work with, then there's this new language, has been on HN frontpage once or twice.. I can't remember the name, but I think it had something to do with oxidation of metals.. Something about shellfish as well..

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fractionalhare 6y ago
The person you're replying to is almost certainly not using the word "safe" in the same sense you are. In particular: safety in trading has to do with risk management, strategy correlation, side effects, and correctness. Software security matters, in the abstract, but trading firms don't care about it nearly as much as tech companies do. The other thing is that being as fast as C++ is not compelling enough a reason to replace C++ for their use cases. If anything, Rust's dependency management story would be the thing to highlight (this is part of what's compelling about the JVM).
- jariel 6y ago
  "Software security matters" I think the responder's version of 'safety' really boils down to 'null pointer safety' - not 'software security'. And even then, people keep talking about it like it's 'the thing'. Java has null 'references' as do most languages frankly and it's just 'a thing' almost never 'the thing' to be concerned about. 'What devs want' is basically something kind of like Java, but that compiles, predictable/controllable performance and memory management i.e. no GC. That's it. It will probably end up being Rust, but that's because Rust will eventually provide all the nice, clean, modern package management, idioms, libraries etc., not specifically because of the 'safety'. Granted I don't want to diminish that in the attempt to create 'proper memory management' you probably end up writing better software anyhow.
  - fractionalhare 6y ago
    That's fair. Instead of saying "software security" I should have been more specific in talking about memory and pointer issues. In that sense, yes Rust does offer some safety guarantees beyond preventing memory corruption vulnerabilities.
- nv-vn 6y ago
  Jane Street famously uses OCaml for these types of guarantees, so I would think Rust would offer similar benefits.
  - fractionalhare 6y ago
    Why would you think that? Rust's major selling point for safety guarantees is the borrow checker. It does not provide most of OCaml's type and functional semantics. That being said: Jane Street is pretty avant garde in this respect. I expect there already is, or soon will be, a successful trading firm which likewise builds its tech brand on Rust and alternatives to Rust standard library primitives. But overall adoption will probably continue to be anemic.
    - tormeh 6y ago
troebr 6y ago
I was surprised there was no mention of it in the article. Maybe it's not used commonly in the trading space?
- fractionalhare 6y ago
  If I said Rust is rarely used in trading I'd be still overstating its adoption. There is approximately no Rust code in buy side finance. It exists in the sense that you could find something written in it somewhere, even it it's just an infra tool used by one of the software engineers. But I would be very surprised to hear of any trading firm that uses it in the hot path.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 6y ago
A language that brings the Gentoo installation experience to external libraries and requires special purpose data structures to compile properly?
- scaladev 6y ago
  Do you prefer the Linux from Scratch installation experience which C and C++ provide?
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Only for clueless developers that don't know their trade.
alexeiz 6y ago
A language that should not be named.

bob1029 6y ago

LMAX Disruptor is a really powerful abstraction if you are trying to build something with consistently-low latency. I've been using a variant in .NET Core for purposes of processing UI events.

secondcoming 6y ago
It was very interesting, I ported it to C++. However, I lost interest when the whole thing could lock up if the RingBuffer size was very small yet still a power of two. It also uses sun.misc.Unsafe to do the latency critical aspects, so yes it's Java, but most certainly not vanilla Java.

pron 6y ago

ZGC is at 1-2ms max pause time in JDK 16 and is expected to reach <1ms max pause time within a year.

ISL 6y ago
Isn't this architecture dependent? It is hard to imagine the same performance on a Pentium Pro. What is the right processor-independent measure for latencies like this? Number of clock-ticks? That seems flawed, too.
- walkingolof 6y ago
  Sort of, it you have to have a 64 bit CPU. Here is a more in-depth article on how it works, using pointer coloring. https://www.programmersought.com/article/29543432001/ https://www.programmersought.com/article/29543432001/

blibble 6y ago

where I've worked you avoid triggering the GC by making sure you have enough memory for the entire day's operations with a modern JVM you can even disable it entirely (Epsilon collector)

rokobobo 6y ago

I come from a place that used Java as the main language for its strategies, and the developers' overall sentiment was very close to yours. I saw people comment on the "fast<->smart" continuum, and in this context, I believe they mean smart=computationally intensive. (An extreme example is a stat arb shop running its portfolio optimizer.) But there's another way to gain an edge, which is to iterate quickly on your "fast" algorithms and develop them so they take advantage of opportunities that are only partially exploited by competitors. Java seemed pretty good for that purpose for about a decade. Things like JVM warmup, GC, individual ultra-low-latency responses whenever necessary, were all dealt with after the fact.