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It is and it isn't :) Obviously opinions on the language shouldn't be given too much weight if a person hasn't spent too much time investigating/ using it. As

It is and it isn't :) Obviously opinions on the language shouldn't be given too much weight if a person hasn't spent too much time investigating/ using it. As a non-JavaScript person, all the JavaScript examples looks like gobbledygook unless I sit down and consciously think about what the examples are showing, and it kinda hurts my head a bit, but I can slowly force myself through it. But as someone with a few years of lisp under my belt, even the closure examples (and I've never used clojure) parse pretty close the speed of thought. It really is hard to explain to someone who hasn't used lisp for 6-12 months, but there really is a lisp "enlightenment" experience, which is totally unlike anything I've experienced with any of my other languages. I'm not saying this makes it better or worse than other languages, but I am saying it's real, and that lisp code is not only parsable, but exceptionally so to an experienced lisp programmer. One day you're sitting there thinking there's a whole lot of brackets, balancing and indentation in this godforsaken language, and then something just clicks over in your brain and you don't even see the brackets any more and it's all just data structure, and you see the shape of it, and you say to yourself "well that was pretty fucking cool" and from that day on you don't really see the brackets any more, it's all just names, indentation and data structures. edit: and it should also be recognised that an editor implementing parentheses balancing, indentation options, and keyword lookup/ completion also becomes a relatively trivial exercise when your code consists of variable names and structured data.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
> and then something just clicks over in your brain and you don't even see the brackets any more In my experience, the Lisp enlightenment comes in stages, two big ones are 1) s-expression parsing you describe here, and 2) grokking "code is data". WRT. s-expressions enlightenment, I vividly remember when it happened to me. Few months into learning Lisp, I bought a hardcover SICP and, for some reason, decided to do exercises in it on paper. Few exercises in, as I was writing Lisp code with a pen in hand, suddenly something clicked in my head - like my brain JIT-compiled a new processing module - and from then on, I no longer needed to mentally count or track the parens. I just knew how many and where they were, it dropped to semiconscious level. Ever since, I'm very comfortable with s-expressions; in fact, I prefer them as a notation to Algol/C-like code.
- jakear 6y ago
  I’ve literally seen first-hand GJS lose track of paren matching while lecturing on Sceme/SICP. It happens very rarely sure, but certainly not never. Probably about as often as experts in any other language/profession make silly mistakes. Perhaps you’re a better schemster than him, but I have my doubts :) I think no matter the language the syntax will disappear over time and your brain will learn to look at the character matrix and directly see logical constructs, moreover this will always apply cross-language to other languages with similar syntax. Fit example, I primarily work in TS, I have decent amount of experience in other C-style, and to me Rust is easily readable with very little experience actually using it.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    I'm not sure who GJS is but if you see any lisper editing text instead of operating on structures (with auto-balancing parenthesis and so on), it's 99% certain it's in an environment they are not familiar with, so they will make mistakes. I don't think anyone who write Lisp-like languages professionally doesn't use tools like parinfer/paraedit, where balancing parenthesis is not something you have to do.
    - jakear 6y ago
      This was on a blackboard. And GJS advised Guy Steele in creating Scheme and coauthored SICP with him.
      - capableweb 6y ago
        Yup, makes sense that you make mistakes then, as these folks are surely used to not having to think about balancing parenthesis anymore. Just as over-reliance on GPS will make your navigation skills without a GPS worse over time.
      - kgwgk 6y ago
        > coauthored SICP with him Not with him.
    - 6y ago
abhinav22 6y ago
Hey :) You wrote a really nice comment ages ago, which partly inspired me to learn lisp and also it’s formatting. I still want clean it up a fair bit, but here’s the draft article: https://ashokkhanna-530.medium.com/formatting-lisp-5e28020b8bac https://ashokkhanna-530.medium.com/formatting-lisp-5e28020b8... Hope it’s okay to use your quote! And if not, I’ll take it down
- ACow_Adonis 6y ago
  perfectly ok from me, honestly I'm flattered :)
- reegnz 6y ago
  I'd just use parinfer/paredit and forget about the whole formatting 90% of the time.
novok 6y ago
I think it's like a language family thing. If your familiar with a C-language (or more accurately, AGOL style) then looking at other C-languages isn't as alien to you. While looking at a LISP family language, it's a different language branch and so you have to learn some new ways of thinking, which can be disorienting. Ex french & english vs french & indonesian. English and french can recognize words from each other and kind of see some similar grammar rules (the medicine vs. la médecine) while with indonesian those moments are not as frequent.

TeMPOraL 6y ago

> and then something just clicks over in your brain and you don't even see the brackets any more In my experience, the Lisp enlightenment comes in stages, two big ones are 1) s-expression parsing you describe here, and 2) grokking "code is data". WRT. s-expressions enlightenment, I vividly remember when it happened to me. Few months into learning Lisp, I bought a hardcover SICP and, for some reason, decided to do exercises in it on paper. Few exercises in, as I was writing Lisp code with a pen in hand, suddenly something clicked in my head - like my brain JIT-compiled a new processing module - and from then on, I no longer needed to mentally count or track the parens. I just knew how many and where they were, it dropped to semiconscious level. Ever since, I'm very comfortable with s-expressions; in fact, I prefer them as a notation to Algol/C-like code.

jakear 6y ago
I’ve literally seen first-hand GJS lose track of paren matching while lecturing on Sceme/SICP. It happens very rarely sure, but certainly not never. Probably about as often as experts in any other language/profession make silly mistakes. Perhaps you’re a better schemster than him, but I have my doubts :) I think no matter the language the syntax will disappear over time and your brain will learn to look at the character matrix and directly see logical constructs, moreover this will always apply cross-language to other languages with similar syntax. Fit example, I primarily work in TS, I have decent amount of experience in other C-style, and to me Rust is easily readable with very little experience actually using it.
- capableweb 6y ago
  I'm not sure who GJS is but if you see any lisper editing text instead of operating on structures (with auto-balancing parenthesis and so on), it's 99% certain it's in an environment they are not familiar with, so they will make mistakes. I don't think anyone who write Lisp-like languages professionally doesn't use tools like parinfer/paraedit, where balancing parenthesis is not something you have to do.
  - jakear 6y ago
    This was on a blackboard. And GJS advised Guy Steele in creating Scheme and coauthored SICP with him.
    - capableweb 6y ago
      Yup, makes sense that you make mistakes then, as these folks are surely used to not having to think about balancing parenthesis anymore. Just as over-reliance on GPS will make your navigation skills without a GPS worse over time.
    - kgwgk 6y ago
      > coauthored SICP with him Not with him.
  - 6y ago

abhinav22 6y ago

Hey :) You wrote a really nice comment ages ago, which partly inspired me to learn lisp and also it’s formatting. I still want clean it up a fair bit, but here’s the draft article: https://ashokkhanna-530.medium.com/formatting-lisp-5e28020b8bac https://ashokkhanna-530.medium.com/formatting-lisp-5e28020b8... Hope it’s okay to use your quote! And if not, I’ll take it down

ACow_Adonis 6y ago
perfectly ok from me, honestly I'm flattered :)
reegnz 6y ago
I'd just use parinfer/paredit and forget about the whole formatting 90% of the time.

novok 6y ago

I think it's like a language family thing. If your familiar with a C-language (or more accurately, AGOL style) then looking at other C-languages isn't as alien to you. While looking at a LISP family language, it's a different language branch and so you have to learn some new ways of thinking, which can be disorienting. Ex french & english vs french & indonesian. English and french can recognize words from each other and kind of see some similar grammar rules (the medicine vs. la médecine) while with indonesian those moments are not as frequent.