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Is it universally accepted in the industry that it’s OK to pay engineers who live in cheaper places less than those with high cost of living? I mean, the compan

Is it universally accepted in the industry that it’s OK to pay engineers who live in cheaper places less than those with high cost of living? I mean, the company is getting the same value in either case.

spurdoman77 6y ago
Is it universally accepted that it is OK for consumers to pay less for goods produced in cheap regions?
- strogonoff 6y ago
  I paid a fair bit for an iPhone made in China, which is supposedly on the cheaper side…
  - onion2k 6y ago
    You pay a lot less for the Chinese built iPhone than you would for an American built iPhone.
    - strogonoff 6y ago
      If there was a very good and expensive phone produced in, say, Vietnam, I don’t think I would discriminate and consciously choose a more “appropriately priced” phone instead. Global trade & containers are to thank for that, I suppose.
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      No, you made Apple more money. In fact I'd really wager that an iPhone is something that costs much less in manufacturing costs than other things made in China.
absolutelyrad 6y ago
You pay as little as you can get away with.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Rapzid 6y ago
  This is the way. This is also how you establish yourself as an outlier ;)
onion2k 6y ago
I mean, the company is getting the same amount of value in either case. No, they're not. Someone living near the main office (or if the company is fully remote just near the rest of the team), can attend face-to-face meetings with their team, they can be there for in-person client demos without needing prior notice and plane tickets, they're in the same time zone for remote meetings, if the team is international then people in different countries cost most for buying services and dealing with legal stuff.. Having staff live and work remotely does come with additional costs, and there are downsides, so it's not unreasonable to suggest the value isn't the same. When you're assessing the cost of staff you don't only look at the outputs.
- strogonoff 6y ago
  This is a fair point, but theirs is a fully remote setup. Honestly, if I get hired by Buffer while living in a low-cost area, I’d immediately move to a high-cost city to get better pay. Supposedly, HR shouldn’t bat an eye on that, since there’s the calculator? Or would they ask me to not move? Would an engineer living out of a hostel in LA get paid more than one who has a mansion in Bali?
  - lnnnn 6y ago
    I know a few people in some companies who managed to move to cheaper locations, switch to remote and keep their salary. Imagine a recruiter trying tl convince them to work for Gitlab but having to move back to a big city and WFH in a tiny condo or otherwise get paid 50% what they make now lol It makes absolutely zero sense from demand/supply PoV and eventually they will have to catch up to the times. Fully remote isn’t an exclusive perk anymore Saying your hiring people anywhere in the world then telling the candidate the offer is shitty bc they don’t live in an hyper-inflated real-estate area is not just silly but insulting
- scott_w 6y ago
  Except Gitlab is fully remote, so these face to face meetings shouldn’t be happening. If anything, creating this situation is actively creating a disadvantage to remote workers by not allowing them access to this privileged information. In my previous role, this was a real problem (and I was part of it!) where the remote team members didn’t have access to the in-depth information that those of us in the office did. That should have been on us to fix, but we didn’t and the company suffered as a result. At Hotjar, like Gitlab, we’re 100% remote so we don’t have this 2-tier information system. There are costs, however ALL of these are good costs to have. They improve organisational resilience immensely and they’re things colocated offices should have but typically don’t until the time comes (usually after something bad happens). Unlike Gitlab, we don’t split compensation based on location, it’s simply based on your role and seniority. It comes with some challenges but it makes me feel as valued as someone working from London or Munich, where the cost of living is higher.
Androider 6y ago
I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's pretty much universally the case across all industries and roles. I'm always surprised to hear that software engineers are surprised about this. The interesting thing will be to see how remote work will change this over the next few decades.
- lnnnn 6y ago
  You mean right now? Gitlab sells itself as a full-remote global-hiring company and there are plenty of others. With Covid and everything the exception now is being physically in the office. I don’t expect things to go back to how they were ever. If you’re being hired for a remote role then at most salary could vary according to time zone, perhaps a small difference due to taxation issues. Paying 40% more to get the same value from someone living in SF has no possible justification (from a business pov) if you’re hiring for a global remote position (which is what Gitlab does) If there’s actually a business reason someone living in SF might add more value they should hire locally. This all sounds like a lame way of ratinalizing paying more to some employees who happen to live in SF (early hires likely) while pretending everyone is treated the same according to some equation.
robjan 6y ago
The same reason it's acceptable to pay less to a cleaner than it is an engineer. It's about supply & demand and attracting the talent you need. If people are willing to work for less then employers will pay them less.

spurdoman77 6y ago

Is it universally accepted that it is OK for consumers to pay less for goods produced in cheap regions?

strogonoff 6y ago
I paid a fair bit for an iPhone made in China, which is supposedly on the cheaper side…
- onion2k 6y ago
  You pay a lot less for the Chinese built iPhone than you would for an American built iPhone.
  - strogonoff 6y ago
    If there was a very good and expensive phone produced in, say, Vietnam, I don’t think I would discriminate and consciously choose a more “appropriately priced” phone instead. Global trade & containers are to thank for that, I suppose.
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    No, you made Apple more money. In fact I'd really wager that an iPhone is something that costs much less in manufacturing costs than other things made in China.

absolutelyrad 6y ago

You pay as little as you can get away with.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Rapzid 6y ago
This is the way. This is also how you establish yourself as an outlier ;)

onion2k 6y ago

I mean, the company is getting the same amount of value in either case. No, they're not. Someone living near the main office (or if the company is fully remote just near the rest of the team), can attend face-to-face meetings with their team, they can be there for in-person client demos without needing prior notice and plane tickets, they're in the same time zone for remote meetings, if the team is international then people in different countries cost most for buying services and dealing with legal stuff.. Having staff live and work remotely does come with additional costs, and there are downsides, so it's not unreasonable to suggest the value isn't the same. When you're assessing the cost of staff you don't only look at the outputs.

strogonoff 6y ago
This is a fair point, but theirs is a fully remote setup. Honestly, if I get hired by Buffer while living in a low-cost area, I’d immediately move to a high-cost city to get better pay. Supposedly, HR shouldn’t bat an eye on that, since there’s the calculator? Or would they ask me to not move? Would an engineer living out of a hostel in LA get paid more than one who has a mansion in Bali?
- lnnnn 6y ago
  I know a few people in some companies who managed to move to cheaper locations, switch to remote and keep their salary. Imagine a recruiter trying tl convince them to work for Gitlab but having to move back to a big city and WFH in a tiny condo or otherwise get paid 50% what they make now lol It makes absolutely zero sense from demand/supply PoV and eventually they will have to catch up to the times. Fully remote isn’t an exclusive perk anymore Saying your hiring people anywhere in the world then telling the candidate the offer is shitty bc they don’t live in an hyper-inflated real-estate area is not just silly but insulting
scott_w 6y ago
Except Gitlab is fully remote, so these face to face meetings shouldn’t be happening. If anything, creating this situation is actively creating a disadvantage to remote workers by not allowing them access to this privileged information. In my previous role, this was a real problem (and I was part of it!) where the remote team members didn’t have access to the in-depth information that those of us in the office did. That should have been on us to fix, but we didn’t and the company suffered as a result. At Hotjar, like Gitlab, we’re 100% remote so we don’t have this 2-tier information system. There are costs, however ALL of these are good costs to have. They improve organisational resilience immensely and they’re things colocated offices should have but typically don’t until the time comes (usually after something bad happens). Unlike Gitlab, we don’t split compensation based on location, it’s simply based on your role and seniority. It comes with some challenges but it makes me feel as valued as someone working from London or Munich, where the cost of living is higher.

Androider 6y ago

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's pretty much universally the case across all industries and roles. I'm always surprised to hear that software engineers are surprised about this. The interesting thing will be to see how remote work will change this over the next few decades.

lnnnn 6y ago
You mean right now? Gitlab sells itself as a full-remote global-hiring company and there are plenty of others. With Covid and everything the exception now is being physically in the office. I don’t expect things to go back to how they were ever. If you’re being hired for a remote role then at most salary could vary according to time zone, perhaps a small difference due to taxation issues. Paying 40% more to get the same value from someone living in SF has no possible justification (from a business pov) if you’re hiring for a global remote position (which is what Gitlab does) If there’s actually a business reason someone living in SF might add more value they should hire locally. This all sounds like a lame way of ratinalizing paying more to some employees who happen to live in SF (early hires likely) while pretending everyone is treated the same according to some equation.

robjan 6y ago

The same reason it's acceptable to pay less to a cleaner than it is an engineer. It's about supply & demand and attracting the talent you need. If people are willing to work for less then employers will pay them less.