3 ms·

The problems Wayland solve are those of yesteryear, sprinkled with the broken dreams that we'd all be running it on Linux phones by now. In that context a stric

The problems Wayland solve are those of yesteryear, sprinkled with the broken dreams that we'd all be running it on Linux phones by now. In that context a strict security model makes sense. Trouble is, that security model makes no sense on today's desktop. In 2020, people aren't downloading and running native applications on desktops, not even (especially?) on Linux. The desktop is now solely a manager of browser windows. Everything that normal folks do is done through the browser, from email to office collaboration. Maybe a few Electron apps sprinkled in (mostly targeted for developers, ironically). Maybe the calculator? That's pretty much it. The most important desktop apps today? Chrome and Zoom. Both which barely work in Wayland. But at least all that non-existent native desktop software can't now spy on my web mail? Too bad screen sharing is now a complete shitshow. Actually worthwhile problems to solve on the desktop are for example high DPI and fractional scaling, rock-solid multi-monitor support, dynamically plugging in and removing displays, mixing displays of varying DPIs, high refresh rates and variable sync etc. The desktop will increasingly become a niche for high-end developer setups.

transpostmeta 6y ago
You must realise that many people use desktop applications for their work. The Office suite, the Adobe suite, AutoCAD, ArcGIS: whatever program is in use in the industry you are in.
nsajko 6y ago
One more thing: the Wayland security model doesn't make much sense anyway, considering that running untrusted code over a large attack surface and without at least virtualization is probably a bad idea anyway nowadays (and even virtual machines can be escaped from).
- heftig 6y ago
  The Wayland security model was designed with sandboxed applications in mind. X was not.
  - account42 6y ago
    There is no reason you can't sandbox X11 clients - no need to break the protocol for that.
phkahler 6y ago
>> In 2020, people aren't downloading and running native applications on desktops, not even (especially?) on Linux. No, we download and run them in our web browsers because the operating systems (and X11) failed to implement security models that fit the modern world. Wayland is a move in the right direction here.
sergeykish 6y ago
> Trouble is, that security model makes no sense on today's desktop. At least some users disagree. Flatpak and snap run applications in sandbox. I am to used for open source software, I fear installing closed source like Opera, MS Edge (not supported on Linux yet), Steam. And Steam with Proton is the next thing to bring Linux on the desktop. Why are you comparing X11 and Wayland? If something does not work on X.Org we are better with another project than with nothing. If Chrome and Zoom work on X.Org stick to it.

transpostmeta 6y ago

You must realise that many people use desktop applications for their work. The Office suite, the Adobe suite, AutoCAD, ArcGIS: whatever program is in use in the industry you are in.

nsajko 6y ago

One more thing: the Wayland security model doesn't make much sense anyway, considering that running untrusted code over a large attack surface and without at least virtualization is probably a bad idea anyway nowadays (and even virtual machines can be escaped from).

heftig 6y ago
The Wayland security model was designed with sandboxed applications in mind. X was not.
- account42 6y ago
  There is no reason you can't sandbox X11 clients - no need to break the protocol for that.

phkahler 6y ago

>> In 2020, people aren't downloading and running native applications on desktops, not even (especially?) on Linux. No, we download and run them in our web browsers because the operating systems (and X11) failed to implement security models that fit the modern world. Wayland is a move in the right direction here.

sergeykish 6y ago

> Trouble is, that security model makes no sense on today's desktop. At least some users disagree. Flatpak and snap run applications in sandbox. I am to used for open source software, I fear installing closed source like Opera, MS Edge (not supported on Linux yet), Steam. And Steam with Proton is the next thing to bring Linux on the desktop. Why are you comparing X11 and Wayland? If something does not work on X.Org we are better with another project than with nothing. If Chrome and Zoom work on X.Org stick to it.