7 ms·

From the article: "What worries me as much as the end of general-purpose computing for the masses is that so few seem to understand that it is ending." Correct

From the article: "What worries me as much as the end of general-purpose computing for the masses is that so few seem to understand that it is ending." Correction: Has Ended. The vast majority of people using computers has shifted to phones and tablets. I have a friend who's a millenial who barely knows how to use his desktop PC (It's a Mac) but is fluent on his iPad/iPhone. Most people are not content creators, they are consumers. The people who are still building their own PC's are mostly enthusiasts. There's no profit in building custom PC's anymore, so local computer shops aren't selling them (And if they are, it's at a hefty premium). The author of the article calls the 1980's the "Golden era" of personal computing. I disagree. Networked computing is an amazing thing, but it's also been monetized and now the consumers are the product being sold. And happily so. The outliers are those who buy pre-2012 computers so they can skip UEFI and are happy to live under their rocks to do it. That's okay with me. Personally I need a faster computer than that, so I'm stuck with UEFI and because W10 is the right OS for my needs, I'm stuck with it phoning home. This doesn't mean the golden age was in the 80's or 90's. It means that by the time we figured out how to make computing awesome, we also figured out how to make computing itself profitable, not just the computers. The golden age the could have been, never was.

benlivengood 6y ago
Android is still general purpose. I have Termux if I need to compile and run something. I can sideload APKs. I run Windows on desktop for newer games, but quite a few work on my Ubuntu laptop too.
- smitty1e 6y ago
  Unless your overlords benign be: "Nein!"
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  Only if you root. General purpose computers can run alternative OSs.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    To be fair, quite a few Android phones have unlockable bootloaders. You go to the manufacturer's website, download a utility or request a code, and you can then also install whichever OS you want.
    - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
      In my experience realistically even if you can unlock the bootloader, the hardware is still so proprietary that you have no hope of ever installing an alternative OS it because by the time you reverse engineer it all the phone is already 10 years old.
      - jdally987 6y ago
        In my experience it usually goes just fine. I’m actually not totally sure what you’re talking about, what does the hardware have to do with it if you’ve got the bootloader unlocked? Assuming you’ve got something common like a Qualcomm SoC, it’s pretty straightforward to take codeaurora or whatever source and AOSP and 90% of the time have an almost fully functional custom image for your device. Now granted I’ve rooted every phone I’ve had since the HTC Incredible, and I always check XDA forums before buying a new one to see if there’s a decent development community. And in recent years there has been a SHARP drop in the % of manufacturers that even allow their bootloaders to be unlocked - I don’t think the last like 6 samsung galaxy’s have ever been possible to do it. But there are still plenty, I’ve managed to find a kickass flagship model every year or 2 years and upgrade through at least 2 or 3 versions of android (I always buy last- or last-last-gen models used for <$200 so they’re typically a bit out of date already). I couldn’t imagine any other way honestly. I absolutely love rooting & flashing custom roms, and it’s kept all my phones practically as young and snappy as the day they originally released...or better
        vbezhenar 6y ago
        Is there any phone with full open source support? So you can compile Android and run it without any proprietary driver blobs.
proc0 6y ago
I think what happened is that smart phones took over because people who were not using PCs started using smart phones, and so it seems that phones took over but I think it just tapped into a gigantic market that wasn't really touched by desktop PCs, whose users are mostly professionals, power users, gaming nerds, etc. These groups like the most powerful computing options, and still do but the there are way more non-technical people using a computing device now than before.
jay_kyburz 6y ago
I don't think "the masses" were ever interested in general-purpose computing. For them it never started. For people who actually care, I think the concerns are overblown and we'll always have access to a machine that can run open software. And yes sure, we might not be able to pay consumer prices for them, but they are not going anywhere. And sure, we might elect a fascist government which will simply ban the technology, or the west will go to war with China making it very difficult to manufacture anything. Unlikely.
- antonfire 6y ago
  There's a large chunk of enthusiasts between "the masses" and the hard core of people who "actually care" enough (and are rich enough) to go out of their way to have their own machine at home no matter what short of it being illegal.
- rbecker 6y ago
  No self-respecting author would write "We'll always have access to typewriters without built-in censorship. Sure, we might not be able to pay consumer prices for them, but they are not going anywhere." What makes you so sure the restrictions will stop somewhere you're comfortable with? What happens when unlocked machines are only available to "enterprise" (not unlike a certain Windows version), and you have to agree to audits when buying them? What chance do free operating systems stand, when 99% of users don't even have access to computers that could run them? We need not worry as long as somewhere, in some dark basement, a sysadmin is able to assemble an unlocked personal computer from his company's old hardware?
  - jay_kyburz 6y ago
    I guess I'm confident that an open market will always provide for us. I don't know why you think it would not. Right now, today, it has never been easier to just go down to the local mall and buy a general purpose computer, and sure, there are lots of phones, tablets, and consoles on display as well, but there is no less computers as a result.
    - 6y ago
coddle-hark 6y ago
> Most people are not content creators, they are consumers. I don’t think this is true at all, everybody that has a Twitter / Facebook / Instagram / YouTube / TikTok account is a content creator. There’s a reason the term “browsing the web” has died out, it’s not about passive consumption anymore. Writing code is just about the only thing you can’t do on an iPad. And while I think we can all agree on HN that having a gateway to programming is super important, you can’t expect most people to care. Typed on my iPhone. In bed.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > everybody that has a Twitter / Facebook / Instagram / YouTube / TikTok account is a content creator. All the fora you mention are characterized by lack of longform text. What people are creating today tends to be image-heavy and eschew any long argumentation or prose storytelling. Having just a smartphone obviously represents a limitation. For example, I am a member of some niche travel communities. A decade ago, when it was common for people to lug a laptop, there was a healthier community of people writing detailed blog posts on certain destinations, editing Wikivoyage or Hitchwiki, etc. Now that those same travelers are leaving the laptop at home and traveling only with a phone where it is inconvenient to enter much text, the ecosystem of travel resources is actually poorer than it was in the past.
  - coddle-hark 6y ago
    Yes, long-form text is down and photo/video based content has exploded — things are different but I’d hesitate to say that they’re worse overall. I used to share a computer with 5 other family members growing up in the 90’s, nowadays every kid has a content creation device on them 24/7. That seems like a good thing to me.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - fredthomsen 6y ago
    Definitely agree with this. Twitter and other social media has really forced the short 140 character snippet or image to be favored over thoughtful posts and blog articles.
arbol 6y ago
You can easily disable W10 telemetry and all the other nonsense they put in it.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  And they turn it on after updates or ignore the setting or nag you every day to turn it back on. Every time I boot back in to windows I get a full screen message about tying my account to an online one.
  - arbol 6y ago
    Weird. I don't get that. I used https://www.w10privacy.de/english-home/ https://www.w10privacy.de/english-home/
wisty 6y ago
There's 2 factors, medium and platform. PC is better for long text. Phones are better for photo / media. Both have pros and cons. There's also the platform. A lot of phone content ends up siloed into auto-suggesting apps, where click-bait (touch-bait?) tends to just overrun people. People can now sit for hours just swiping on auto-suggested content. The same can be true for text (see clickbait) but you'd tend to access that through a web browser, where you're just a tab away from something actually useful.
whatsmyusername 6y ago
The masses run any program or punch their credentials into any phishing site you send them. I'm fine with them being restricted to the iphones and androids of the world. That's where it's going to go, the security situation is not getting better. You already see it in a lot of political organizations where many of the workers get by with chromebooks. And for joe schmo, that's FINE.
013a 6y ago
> I have a friend who's a millenial who barely knows how to use his desktop PC (It's a Mac) but is fluent on his iPad/iPhone. This worries me not because of any open computing concerns, but because of how FUNDAMENTAL general purpose computers are to nearly every decent paying professional job out there. All of them. No one daily drives Excel or Salesforce One or edits video or codes websites or balances accounts in Quickbooks on an iPad. Literally no one; we're decades away from that being mainstream, if it ever happens. Everyone needs to be computer literate. Being a wiz on your iPhone or iPad does not, in any sense of the word, make you computer literate. Kids growing up with these closed-off devices quite literally destroys the fire of desire for learning how computers work, or even accidentally gaining a glancing knowledge with them enough to hold a good office office job. Companies like Apple endlessly mouth their desire to get more kids to code, then their arms release devices so closed off that even trying to take a quick peek at how they work triggers eighteen system integrity protection alarms. You can't have it both ways, Apple. Well, whatever. I don't really care. It just means more ultra high paying jobs for me. Apple (and Google, and to a lesser degree Microsoft) are literally actively sabotaging their own talent pool, guaranteeing that they'll never be able to hire enough people while paying the ones they do hire a ton of money.
- drdeadringer 6y ago
  > Companies like Apple endlessly mouth their desire to get more kids to code, then their arms release devices so closed off that even trying to take a quick peek at how they work triggers eighteen system integrity protection alarms. You can't have it both ways, Apple. Apple C-Suites: "We want kids to code." Apple Ads: "What's a computer?" Whilst it might be me, somebody somewhere doesn't understand something.
  - toyg 6y ago
    It's not an all-or-nothing. One side perpetuates ignorance to keep consumer prices high; the other balances out to produce just enough technicians to keep wages low. They don't need everyone to be a technician, but they do need everyone to be a consumer. If you think of it as a firewall around knowledge, it's basically like this set of rules: Deny: all Allow: <specific group>
ogre_codes 6y ago
> What worries me as much as the end of general-purpose computing for the masses is that so few seem to understand that it is ending. I think the author would have better phrased his comment: "What worries me as much as the end of general-purpose computing for hobbyists and hackers is that so few seem to understand that it is ending." reply > Correction: Has Ended. I guess I have a different definition of "General Purpose Computing" than you or the author, because personally I see the iPhone and iPad as the beginning of general purpose computing for the masses. The traditional PC was computing for the elite/ computer experts. This romanticism of 80s computing as the golden age completely mystifies me. The 80s/ 90s were a phenomenally fun time for geeks like me/ us. For everyone else, a PC was a thing you had to learn a bunch of esoteric bullshit to use. "For the masses", the iPhone, Android, and the iPad are far more interesting and useful. Even if you look at more specific PC style computing, most people don't care about whether their bios is locked or not.
tuatoru 6y ago
> Most people are not content creators, they are consumers. And using locked-down devices will condemn them to that for the term of their natural lives. But actually I disagree. At different stages in their lives, people do different things. Make music. take photos, and wonder why they suck. Make family trees. Various hobbies, that require working with multiple bits of sotware on on multiple projects. Take electronics. It's a hobby. It's nuts to use apps that each store their data in their own sandbox. One app to draw a schematic diagram, another app to plan the hardware layout, another app to record calibrations and test results, another for photos--and other apps to record the project goals and plans, and the lessons learned. If I couldn't use a general purpose computer and store all of these files (and others, such as manufacturers' datasheets for critical components) in a single folder for each project (not part in one app, and another bit in aonther app, and so on), I'd be using paper, a drawing board and a filing cabinet.
csomar 6y ago
> There's no profit in building custom PC's anymore, so local computer shops aren't selling them (And if they are, it's at a hefty premium). Most (all) shops I have seen will sell you custom PCs for the price of the components. Unless you are talking about Entreprise ones (not sure if they do exist), most of these cater for gamers who are price-sensitive. But the components are the same, and you can pick an aluminum case instead of the RGB ones.
neop1x 6y ago
I use a modern desktop with Arch Linux and KDE. I stopped using Windows ~10 years ago and not looking back.
summerdown2 6y ago
On the other hand, 30 million Raspberry Pis have been sold and an enormous number of people are learning to code as a result of free online resources. I'm not so sure the end of general-purpose computing for the masses is all that over. Even your example describes someone who, while he isn't fluent with it, actually owns a general purpose computer.

benlivengood 6y ago

Android is still general purpose. I have Termux if I need to compile and run something. I can sideload APKs. I run Windows on desktop for newer games, but quite a few work on my Ubuntu laptop too.

smitty1e 6y ago
Unless your overlords benign be: "Nein!"
Polylactic_acid 6y ago
Only if you root. General purpose computers can run alternative OSs.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  To be fair, quite a few Android phones have unlockable bootloaders. You go to the manufacturer's website, download a utility or request a code, and you can then also install whichever OS you want.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    In my experience realistically even if you can unlock the bootloader, the hardware is still so proprietary that you have no hope of ever installing an alternative OS it because by the time you reverse engineer it all the phone is already 10 years old.
    - jdally987 6y ago
      In my experience it usually goes just fine. I’m actually not totally sure what you’re talking about, what does the hardware have to do with it if you’ve got the bootloader unlocked? Assuming you’ve got something common like a Qualcomm SoC, it’s pretty straightforward to take codeaurora or whatever source and AOSP and 90% of the time have an almost fully functional custom image for your device. Now granted I’ve rooted every phone I’ve had since the HTC Incredible, and I always check XDA forums before buying a new one to see if there’s a decent development community. And in recent years there has been a SHARP drop in the % of manufacturers that even allow their bootloaders to be unlocked - I don’t think the last like 6 samsung galaxy’s have ever been possible to do it. But there are still plenty, I’ve managed to find a kickass flagship model every year or 2 years and upgrade through at least 2 or 3 versions of android (I always buy last- or last-last-gen models used for <$200 so they’re typically a bit out of date already). I couldn’t imagine any other way honestly. I absolutely love rooting & flashing custom roms, and it’s kept all my phones practically as young and snappy as the day they originally released...or better
      - vbezhenar 6y ago
        Is there any phone with full open source support? So you can compile Android and run it without any proprietary driver blobs.

proc0 6y ago

I think what happened is that smart phones took over because people who were not using PCs started using smart phones, and so it seems that phones took over but I think it just tapped into a gigantic market that wasn't really touched by desktop PCs, whose users are mostly professionals, power users, gaming nerds, etc. These groups like the most powerful computing options, and still do but the there are way more non-technical people using a computing device now than before.

jay_kyburz 6y ago

I don't think "the masses" were ever interested in general-purpose computing. For them it never started. For people who actually care, I think the concerns are overblown and we'll always have access to a machine that can run open software. And yes sure, we might not be able to pay consumer prices for them, but they are not going anywhere. And sure, we might elect a fascist government which will simply ban the technology, or the west will go to war with China making it very difficult to manufacture anything. Unlikely.

antonfire 6y ago
There's a large chunk of enthusiasts between "the masses" and the hard core of people who "actually care" enough (and are rich enough) to go out of their way to have their own machine at home no matter what short of it being illegal.
rbecker 6y ago
No self-respecting author would write "We'll always have access to typewriters without built-in censorship. Sure, we might not be able to pay consumer prices for them, but they are not going anywhere." What makes you so sure the restrictions will stop somewhere you're comfortable with? What happens when unlocked machines are only available to "enterprise" (not unlike a certain Windows version), and you have to agree to audits when buying them? What chance do free operating systems stand, when 99% of users don't even have access to computers that could run them? We need not worry as long as somewhere, in some dark basement, a sysadmin is able to assemble an unlocked personal computer from his company's old hardware?
- jay_kyburz 6y ago
  I guess I'm confident that an open market will always provide for us. I don't know why you think it would not. Right now, today, it has never been easier to just go down to the local mall and buy a general purpose computer, and sure, there are lots of phones, tablets, and consoles on display as well, but there is no less computers as a result.
  - 6y ago

coddle-hark 6y ago

> Most people are not content creators, they are consumers. I don’t think this is true at all, everybody that has a Twitter / Facebook / Instagram / YouTube / TikTok account is a content creator. There’s a reason the term “browsing the web” has died out, it’s not about passive consumption anymore. Writing code is just about the only thing you can’t do on an iPad. And while I think we can all agree on HN that having a gateway to programming is super important, you can’t expect most people to care. Typed on my iPhone. In bed.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
> everybody that has a Twitter / Facebook / Instagram / YouTube / TikTok account is a content creator. All the fora you mention are characterized by lack of longform text. What people are creating today tends to be image-heavy and eschew any long argumentation or prose storytelling. Having just a smartphone obviously represents a limitation. For example, I am a member of some niche travel communities. A decade ago, when it was common for people to lug a laptop, there was a healthier community of people writing detailed blog posts on certain destinations, editing Wikivoyage or Hitchwiki, etc. Now that those same travelers are leaving the laptop at home and traveling only with a phone where it is inconvenient to enter much text, the ecosystem of travel resources is actually poorer than it was in the past.
- coddle-hark 6y ago
  Yes, long-form text is down and photo/video based content has exploded — things are different but I’d hesitate to say that they’re worse overall. I used to share a computer with 5 other family members growing up in the 90’s, nowadays every kid has a content creation device on them 24/7. That seems like a good thing to me.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- fredthomsen 6y ago
  Definitely agree with this. Twitter and other social media has really forced the short 140 character snippet or image to be favored over thoughtful posts and blog articles.

arbol 6y ago

You can easily disable W10 telemetry and all the other nonsense they put in it.

Polylactic_acid 6y ago
And they turn it on after updates or ignore the setting or nag you every day to turn it back on. Every time I boot back in to windows I get a full screen message about tying my account to an online one.
- arbol 6y ago
  Weird. I don't get that. I used https://www.w10privacy.de/english-home/ https://www.w10privacy.de/english-home/

wisty 6y ago

There's 2 factors, medium and platform. PC is better for long text. Phones are better for photo / media. Both have pros and cons. There's also the platform. A lot of phone content ends up siloed into auto-suggesting apps, where click-bait (touch-bait?) tends to just overrun people. People can now sit for hours just swiping on auto-suggested content. The same can be true for text (see clickbait) but you'd tend to access that through a web browser, where you're just a tab away from something actually useful.

whatsmyusername 6y ago

The masses run any program or punch their credentials into any phishing site you send them. I'm fine with them being restricted to the iphones and androids of the world. That's where it's going to go, the security situation is not getting better. You already see it in a lot of political organizations where many of the workers get by with chromebooks. And for joe schmo, that's FINE.

013a 6y ago

> I have a friend who's a millenial who barely knows how to use his desktop PC (It's a Mac) but is fluent on his iPad/iPhone. This worries me not because of any open computing concerns, but because of how FUNDAMENTAL general purpose computers are to nearly every decent paying professional job out there. All of them. No one daily drives Excel or Salesforce One or edits video or codes websites or balances accounts in Quickbooks on an iPad. Literally no one; we're decades away from that being mainstream, if it ever happens. Everyone needs to be computer literate. Being a wiz on your iPhone or iPad does not, in any sense of the word, make you computer literate. Kids growing up with these closed-off devices quite literally destroys the fire of desire for learning how computers work, or even accidentally gaining a glancing knowledge with them enough to hold a good office office job. Companies like Apple endlessly mouth their desire to get more kids to code, then their arms release devices so closed off that even trying to take a quick peek at how they work triggers eighteen system integrity protection alarms. You can't have it both ways, Apple. Well, whatever. I don't really care. It just means more ultra high paying jobs for me. Apple (and Google, and to a lesser degree Microsoft) are literally actively sabotaging their own talent pool, guaranteeing that they'll never be able to hire enough people while paying the ones they do hire a ton of money.

drdeadringer 6y ago
> Companies like Apple endlessly mouth their desire to get more kids to code, then their arms release devices so closed off that even trying to take a quick peek at how they work triggers eighteen system integrity protection alarms. You can't have it both ways, Apple. Apple C-Suites: "We want kids to code." Apple Ads: "What's a computer?" Whilst it might be me, somebody somewhere doesn't understand something.
- toyg 6y ago
  It's not an all-or-nothing. One side perpetuates ignorance to keep consumer prices high; the other balances out to produce just enough technicians to keep wages low. They don't need everyone to be a technician, but they do need everyone to be a consumer. If you think of it as a firewall around knowledge, it's basically like this set of rules: Deny: all Allow: <specific group>

ogre_codes 6y ago

> What worries me as much as the end of general-purpose computing for the masses is that so few seem to understand that it is ending. I think the author would have better phrased his comment: "What worries me as much as the end of general-purpose computing for hobbyists and hackers is that so few seem to understand that it is ending." reply > Correction: Has Ended. I guess I have a different definition of "General Purpose Computing" than you or the author, because personally I see the iPhone and iPad as the beginning of general purpose computing for the masses. The traditional PC was computing for the elite/ computer experts. This romanticism of 80s computing as the golden age completely mystifies me. The 80s/ 90s were a phenomenally fun time for geeks like me/ us. For everyone else, a PC was a thing you had to learn a bunch of esoteric bullshit to use. "For the masses", the iPhone, Android, and the iPad are far more interesting and useful. Even if you look at more specific PC style computing, most people don't care about whether their bios is locked or not.

tuatoru 6y ago

> Most people are not content creators, they are consumers. And using locked-down devices will condemn them to that for the term of their natural lives. But actually I disagree. At different stages in their lives, people do different things. Make music. take photos, and wonder why they suck. Make family trees. Various hobbies, that require working with multiple bits of sotware on on multiple projects. Take electronics. It's a hobby. It's nuts to use apps that each store their data in their own sandbox. One app to draw a schematic diagram, another app to plan the hardware layout, another app to record calibrations and test results, another for photos--and other apps to record the project goals and plans, and the lessons learned. If I couldn't use a general purpose computer and store all of these files (and others, such as manufacturers' datasheets for critical components) in a single folder for each project (not part in one app, and another bit in aonther app, and so on), I'd be using paper, a drawing board and a filing cabinet.

csomar 6y ago

> There's no profit in building custom PC's anymore, so local computer shops aren't selling them (And if they are, it's at a hefty premium). Most (all) shops I have seen will sell you custom PCs for the price of the components. Unless you are talking about Entreprise ones (not sure if they do exist), most of these cater for gamers who are price-sensitive. But the components are the same, and you can pick an aluminum case instead of the RGB ones.

neop1x 6y ago

I use a modern desktop with Arch Linux and KDE. I stopped using Windows ~10 years ago and not looking back.

summerdown2 6y ago

On the other hand, 30 million Raspberry Pis have been sold and an enormous number of people are learning to code as a result of free online resources. I'm not so sure the end of general-purpose computing for the masses is all that over. Even your example describes someone who, while he isn't fluent with it, actually owns a general purpose computer.