4 ms·

Obviously? The disconnect is that you seem to think that we can draw conclusions from nonexistent benchmarks.

taeric 6y ago
You are asking us to literally draw conclusions from hypothetical benchmarks where the opposite results will exist. I am sympathetic to the idea that things needed to start over. I'm annoyed with the lack of honesty and self critical approach. As framed by you, Wayland is above criticism. Which immediately raises my suspicions.
- ddevault 6y ago
  I have not said that Wayland is above criticism. I have said that the criticism which has been raised thus far is largely invalid, and that the benchmark you pointed to is flawed. If you insist on using flawed benchmarks as evidence for the inferiority of a technology simply because no less-flawed benchmark exists to provide a counterpoint, you are wrong.
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    What percentage of Wayland users are on Gnome? It seems likely to me that Gnome is likely to be 90-99% of peoples experience with Wayland.
    - ddevault 6y ago
      So what? What percentage of Wayland desktops are on Linux? Do comments on Wayland generalize to comments on Linux? What percentage of Linux installations are on x86_64? Do comments about Linux generalize to x86_64? No, obviously they don't. So, knock it off.
      - michaelmrose 6y ago
        If the majority of new users are exposed to linux via wayland and exposed to wayland via gnome and the gnome experience sucks people will perceive that linux wayland and gnome suck regardless of who is at fault. Have anyone ever bought a car or piece of electronics that was bad because of a particular component and though wow <component oem nobody has heard of> really sucks instead of <name on the box> sucks? Desktop linux may be a niche but window managers are a niche among niches. Interesting window managers implemented via Wayland are a niche in a niche in a niche.
        ddevault 6y ago
        GNOME sucks. This sucks for users. GNOME is popular, so it sucks for a lot of users. That is not a statement about Wayland, so fucking knock it off. If you really want to fix this problem for this large number of users, you ought to make it about GNOME, to pressure them into fixing it and make more people aware of the problem. Making it about Wayland is (1) wrong and (2) makes it worse for the people actually doing something about it.
  - taeric 6y ago
    How is it wrong? You felt it was just unfair, earlier. :) To an extent, I actually agree. I just don't care, though. Pointing at comparisons that are not real world user cases is... Annoying. And feels ridiculously bad faith in argument. Worse so, when it has been a prominent argument in this space for a long time.

You are asking us to literally draw conclusions from hypothetical benchmarks where the opposite results will exist. I am sympathetic to the idea that things needed to start over. I'm annoyed with the lack of honesty and self critical approach. As framed by you, Wayland is above criticism. Which immediately raises my suspicions.

ddevault 6y ago
I have not said that Wayland is above criticism. I have said that the criticism which has been raised thus far is largely invalid, and that the benchmark you pointed to is flawed. If you insist on using flawed benchmarks as evidence for the inferiority of a technology simply because no less-flawed benchmark exists to provide a counterpoint, you are wrong.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  What percentage of Wayland users are on Gnome? It seems likely to me that Gnome is likely to be 90-99% of peoples experience with Wayland.
  - ddevault 6y ago
    So what? What percentage of Wayland desktops are on Linux? Do comments on Wayland generalize to comments on Linux? What percentage of Linux installations are on x86_64? Do comments about Linux generalize to x86_64? No, obviously they don't. So, knock it off.
    - michaelmrose 6y ago
      If the majority of new users are exposed to linux via wayland and exposed to wayland via gnome and the gnome experience sucks people will perceive that linux wayland and gnome suck regardless of who is at fault. Have anyone ever bought a car or piece of electronics that was bad because of a particular component and though wow <component oem nobody has heard of> really sucks instead of <name on the box> sucks? Desktop linux may be a niche but window managers are a niche among niches. Interesting window managers implemented via Wayland are a niche in a niche in a niche.
      - ddevault 6y ago
        GNOME sucks. This sucks for users. GNOME is popular, so it sucks for a lot of users. That is not a statement about Wayland, so fucking knock it off. If you really want to fix this problem for this large number of users, you ought to make it about GNOME, to pressure them into fixing it and make more people aware of the problem. Making it about Wayland is (1) wrong and (2) makes it worse for the people actually doing something about it.
- taeric 6y ago
  How is it wrong? You felt it was just unfair, earlier. :) To an extent, I actually agree. I just don't care, though. Pointing at comparisons that are not real world user cases is... Annoying. And feels ridiculously bad faith in argument. Worse so, when it has been a prominent argument in this space for a long time.