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In foreign press, Sweden is always put forward in the herd immunity discussion - this is wrong. Our version of CDC agency have clearly stated all along that her

In foreign press, Sweden is always put forward in the herd immunity discussion - this is wrong. Our version of CDC agency have clearly stated all along that herd immunity is not the goal. Life in Sweden changed dramatically with the outbreak and the number of deaths have a few reasonable explanations, IMO. The Swedish “CDC” have pushed for long term resilience and believe that strict prolonged lockdowns will be impossible to maintain. Other countries have had a far more political response to this pandemic. Second wave obviously pushing forwards - other Euro countries locking down again. This is kind of ironic as Swedes probably would put up with being locked down better than most other populations. We’re famous for “waiting in line” and following signs and directions - we would suffer lockdown, but in general we simply follow directions, so the idea was it would be ineffective.

barumi 6y ago
> The Swedish “CDC” have pushed for long term resilience and believe that strict prolonged lockdowns will be impossible to maintain. > Other countries have had a far more political response to this pandemic. Spain suffered so much from the covid epidemic that they had to commandeer hotels and convention centers to serve as makeshift emergency hospitals to receive critical covid19 cases. Death rates were so high that in Madrid they had to commandeer an ice rink to serve as a makeshift morgue. Spain's investment in a lockdown allowed them to contain and lower the daily death count from nearly a thousand to single-digits, and reign back spread rates. The lockdown decision in other countries is not political. It's common sense. Have people already forgot what "flatten the curve" means?
- jordanbeiber 6y ago
  Sweden have experienced the same “reining in” of infection and death rates without lockdown. Perhaps lockdowns are required elsewhere due to cultural differences. This is also partly an explanation for Swedens relatively high death rates - our completely botched integration of immigrants over the years. But how many and harsh lockdown can a population endure?
  - barumi 6y ago
    > Sweden have experienced the same “reining in” of infection and death rates without lockdown. No it doesn't. Sweden's population density is a fraction of Italy's and Spain's, and even Sweden's largest urban centers are dwarfed by Italy and Spain's. I mean, to start off Spain has arguably a better national health service than Sweden, and Spain's services were quickly overwhelmed by the epidemic that the country was forced to mobilize their armed forces to respond to it. Spain's daily death count reached around a thousand deaths per day after the mitigating effects of the first lockdown kicked in. Sweden hasn't even experienced a death count that's equivalent of a single week of Spain's . The reason why Sweden's strategy consists of letting covid19 spread like wildfire is based on the fact that in Sweden's case it's peculiarities serve as spread retardant.
    - jordanbeiber 6y ago
      > Sweden's strategy consists of letting covid19 spread like wildfire You’re not from Sweden right? If so you would not say something like this. It is just plain uninformed. My whole family works in health care - doctor, nurse & in elderly care. Your idea of the situation in Sweden is way off. We have “reined in” the spread, but we notice something of a second wave starting here as well.
      - barumi 6y ago
        You may try to pull the authority by proxy card, but that does nothing to address the fact that so far Sweden's total covid19 death count since day zero is still below 6 thousand. That's less than a weekly count of covid19 deaths in Spain when it's first wave flared up. You may claim that you know a nurse in sweden as much as you'd like, but that is completely irrelevant and changes nothing.
        jordanbeiber 6y ago
        Feel free to compare case charts Sweden and Spain. The curves roughly resembles each other. I claim - living in Sweden, that you know nothing about what’s going on here. (Direct authority by living in the very community you comment)
null_object 6y ago
To be entirely accurate, even though the Swedish health authorities have used weasel words to avoid calling the strategy herd-immunity in public, in private emails and internal correspondence their true motivation is very clear. Very thoroughly documented by the respected Swedish journalist Emanuel Karlsten here: (in Swedish) https://emanuelkarlsten.se/tegnell-mejlen-sa-fick-flockimmuniteten-faste-hos-folkhalsomyndigheten/ https://emanuelkarlsten.se/tegnell-mejlen-sa-fick-flockimmun... Edit: Just gonna add that downvotes for a post that straightforwardly cites direct quotations about herd-immunity from the relevant authorities says more about the downvoters than about my post.
- stareatgoats 6y ago
  >> in general we simply follow direction Yes, and it explains to some extent how a majority of Swedes simply can not digest that the authorities say one thing and do another. It is also a propensity for focusing on the literal that characterizes northern Europe in general, the Nordic countries more so, but most of all in Sweden where it is conflated with widespread conformism, adding to insult to injury (figuratively speaking). Herd immunity was a definite part of the strategy, but not to be disclosed by any means. The reason for the strategy is however more interesting to discuss than whether it existed at all (which has simply been proven beyond reasonable doubt). My own analysis leads me to believe that it came be a convenient excuse for the absence of proactive response in the initial phases after which it became a matter of internal prestige (within a small circle of initiated politicians and scientists).
  - jordanbeiber 6y ago
    So basically a conspiracy? My analysis has lead me down a different path. Our deaths are primarily elderly (50%) and our response in this regard was really really bad. Much of this is a consequence of communal and regional self governance - the government have for example very little mandate to direct regional resources (something that was changed recently in response to the pandemic). Other than elderly - immigrants are over represented: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/coronavirus-takes-toll-swedens-immigrant-community-70593594 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/coronavirus-t... These two parts stand out and it has, imo, nothing to do with chasing heard immunity. Tegnell sums it up in way that matches up with my perceived reality: https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2020/10/sweden-s-anders-tegnell-we-did-not-pursue-herd-immunity-against-covid-19 https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2020/10/sweden-s-a...
lazyasciiart 6y ago
Not just the foreign press but Swedish scientists have agreed that the "CDC" is attempting to achieve herd immunity but unwilling to say so. https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2376 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2376
- jordanbeiber 6y ago
  Lot of opinions. Really early reports indicated that young children was not spreading this disease to any appreciable extent. This was something that caught me from early reports out of china - almost no children. This is the real reason schools kept open. Look at studies and data, make desicion.
  - lazyasciiart 6y ago
    No, I don't think there are "lots of opinions" on whether Sweden pursued a herd immunity strategy. And whether it affects children has nothing to do with that.
    - jordanbeiber 6y ago
      Keeping schools open was extremely controversial as many others closed schools. This was seen as a “heard immunity move” although data pointed at something else. The school thing is a big part of Swedens corona reputation abroad in my opinion.

barumi 6y ago

> The Swedish “CDC” have pushed for long term resilience and believe that strict prolonged lockdowns will be impossible to maintain. > Other countries have had a far more political response to this pandemic. Spain suffered so much from the covid epidemic that they had to commandeer hotels and convention centers to serve as makeshift emergency hospitals to receive critical covid19 cases. Death rates were so high that in Madrid they had to commandeer an ice rink to serve as a makeshift morgue. Spain's investment in a lockdown allowed them to contain and lower the daily death count from nearly a thousand to single-digits, and reign back spread rates. The lockdown decision in other countries is not political. It's common sense. Have people already forgot what "flatten the curve" means?

jordanbeiber 6y ago
Sweden have experienced the same “reining in” of infection and death rates without lockdown. Perhaps lockdowns are required elsewhere due to cultural differences. This is also partly an explanation for Swedens relatively high death rates - our completely botched integration of immigrants over the years. But how many and harsh lockdown can a population endure?
- barumi 6y ago
  > Sweden have experienced the same “reining in” of infection and death rates without lockdown. No it doesn't. Sweden's population density is a fraction of Italy's and Spain's, and even Sweden's largest urban centers are dwarfed by Italy and Spain's. I mean, to start off Spain has arguably a better national health service than Sweden, and Spain's services were quickly overwhelmed by the epidemic that the country was forced to mobilize their armed forces to respond to it. Spain's daily death count reached around a thousand deaths per day after the mitigating effects of the first lockdown kicked in. Sweden hasn't even experienced a death count that's equivalent of a single week of Spain's . The reason why Sweden's strategy consists of letting covid19 spread like wildfire is based on the fact that in Sweden's case it's peculiarities serve as spread retardant.
  - jordanbeiber 6y ago
    > Sweden's strategy consists of letting covid19 spread like wildfire You’re not from Sweden right? If so you would not say something like this. It is just plain uninformed. My whole family works in health care - doctor, nurse & in elderly care. Your idea of the situation in Sweden is way off. We have “reined in” the spread, but we notice something of a second wave starting here as well.
    - barumi 6y ago
      You may try to pull the authority by proxy card, but that does nothing to address the fact that so far Sweden's total covid19 death count since day zero is still below 6 thousand. That's less than a weekly count of covid19 deaths in Spain when it's first wave flared up. You may claim that you know a nurse in sweden as much as you'd like, but that is completely irrelevant and changes nothing.
      - jordanbeiber 6y ago
        Feel free to compare case charts Sweden and Spain. The curves roughly resembles each other. I claim - living in Sweden, that you know nothing about what’s going on here. (Direct authority by living in the very community you comment)

null_object 6y ago

To be entirely accurate, even though the Swedish health authorities have used weasel words to avoid calling the strategy herd-immunity in public, in private emails and internal correspondence their true motivation is very clear. Very thoroughly documented by the respected Swedish journalist Emanuel Karlsten here: (in Swedish) https://emanuelkarlsten.se/tegnell-mejlen-sa-fick-flockimmuniteten-faste-hos-folkhalsomyndigheten/ https://emanuelkarlsten.se/tegnell-mejlen-sa-fick-flockimmun... Edit: Just gonna add that downvotes for a post that straightforwardly cites direct quotations about herd-immunity from the relevant authorities says more about the downvoters than about my post.

stareatgoats 6y ago
>> in general we simply follow direction Yes, and it explains to some extent how a majority of Swedes simply can not digest that the authorities say one thing and do another. It is also a propensity for focusing on the literal that characterizes northern Europe in general, the Nordic countries more so, but most of all in Sweden where it is conflated with widespread conformism, adding to insult to injury (figuratively speaking). Herd immunity was a definite part of the strategy, but not to be disclosed by any means. The reason for the strategy is however more interesting to discuss than whether it existed at all (which has simply been proven beyond reasonable doubt). My own analysis leads me to believe that it came be a convenient excuse for the absence of proactive response in the initial phases after which it became a matter of internal prestige (within a small circle of initiated politicians and scientists).
- jordanbeiber 6y ago
  So basically a conspiracy? My analysis has lead me down a different path. Our deaths are primarily elderly (50%) and our response in this regard was really really bad. Much of this is a consequence of communal and regional self governance - the government have for example very little mandate to direct regional resources (something that was changed recently in response to the pandemic). Other than elderly - immigrants are over represented: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/coronavirus-takes-toll-swedens-immigrant-community-70593594 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/coronavirus-t... These two parts stand out and it has, imo, nothing to do with chasing heard immunity. Tegnell sums it up in way that matches up with my perceived reality: https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2020/10/sweden-s-anders-tegnell-we-did-not-pursue-herd-immunity-against-covid-19 https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2020/10/sweden-s-a...

lazyasciiart 6y ago

Not just the foreign press but Swedish scientists have agreed that the "CDC" is attempting to achieve herd immunity but unwilling to say so. https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2376 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2376

jordanbeiber 6y ago
Lot of opinions. Really early reports indicated that young children was not spreading this disease to any appreciable extent. This was something that caught me from early reports out of china - almost no children. This is the real reason schools kept open. Look at studies and data, make desicion.
- lazyasciiart 6y ago
  No, I don't think there are "lots of opinions" on whether Sweden pursued a herd immunity strategy. And whether it affects children has nothing to do with that.
  - jordanbeiber 6y ago
    Keeping schools open was extremely controversial as many others closed schools. This was seen as a “heard immunity move” although data pointed at something else. The school thing is a big part of Swedens corona reputation abroad in my opinion.