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Swedish resident here. I'm not sure why media keeps characterising the Swedish strategy as "herd immunity". I would rather characterize it as sustainable: i.e.,

Swedish resident here. I'm not sure why media keeps characterising the Swedish strategy as "herd immunity". I would rather characterize it as sustainable: i.e., find minimum and stable restrictions that keep the spread below 1. It balances fatality reduction and disturbance avoidance, because the population has time to adjust and internalise the restrictions. Contrast that to countries having mass lockdown protests or our neighbors who add and remove restrictions on a weekly basis. Another "inconvenient truth", thanks to good welfare, there is not "come to work sick" heroism in Sweden. You are basically paid to keep your kids and yourself at home, for as little as a running nose.

jordanbeiber 6y ago
Fellow resident - I’ve been home with all three of my kids whole of last week because runny nose. Pre-schools and schools are super strict. It’s tough times as a parent, kids have runny noses in the autumn/winter... I’m 100% WFH anyways because this is the general recommendation - if you can stay home.
raverbashing 6y ago
I'd add a couple more factors: - More people working from home, both given the type of job they do and the trust by bosses (as opposed to France or Italy where a government suggestion to WFH means almost nothing to the bosses) - Less people per household - People might just literally keep their space more
jeandejean 6y ago
That's because the media are craving for examples to prove their points, but if they don't have facts, they just fake them...
lazyasciiart 6y ago
Because the strategy is herd immunity by every definition except official labeling. That is not a media characterisation, it is the standard understanding in medical communities. Eg ". “They did not want to put it bluntly, but seeking herd immunity was always inherent in the Swedish strategy,” says Anders Bjorkman, a professor of infectious diseases at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm." https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2376 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2376
- anticristi 6y ago
  The word "herd immunity" is used by the media with a very specific meaning. It is meant to refer to an unethical practice of taking insufficient action and just letting people die. As many pointed out on HN, the media does not understand that vaccination is also herd immunity. At any rate, with the commonly used meaning of "herd immunity", this is not what Sweden does.
  - lazyasciiart 6y ago
    No, it is not. The media in my experience has been quite clear that it may or may not involve vaccination, and that Sweden has been attempting to achieve it without vaccination. And the actual private statements of those managing it also talk about achieving widespread immunity through natural infection, not vaccination Eg, Newsweek: ' "herd immunity," which is when up to 70 percent of the population have either been given a vaccination or been infected, impacting the rate of the virus spread.' Giesecke to Tegnell: "it will all come to an end when so many have been infected and become therefore immune that the virus has nowhere else to go (so-called herd immunity)," Tegnell to Giesecke: "as immunity rises in the population, the rate of spread of the disease decreases, ....Is there a way of modelling how the spread comes to a halt?" https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-emails-anders-tegnell-johan-giesecke-herd-immunity-coronavirus-1524847 https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-emails-anders-tegnell-johan-...
    - eesmith 6y ago
      From the linked-to Nature article: > Earlier in the pandemic, media reports claimed that Sweden was pursuing a herd immunity strategy by essentially letting people live their lives as normal, but that idea is a “misunderstanding”, according to the country’s minister for health and social affairs, Lena Hallengren. Herd immunity “is a potential consequence of how the spread of the virus develops, in Sweden or in any other country”, she told Nature in a written statement, but it is “not a part of our strategy”. Sweden’s approach, she said, uses similar tools to most other countries: “Promoting social distancing, protecting vulnerable people, carrying out testing and contact tracing, and reinforcing our health system to cope with the pandemic.”
null_object 6y ago
> Another "inconvenient truth", thanks to good welfare, there is not "come to work sick" heroism in Sweden. You are basically paid to keep your kids and yourself at home, for as little as a running nose. That’s been the case with Covid - but before March Swedish workers were basically docked one day’s entire pay for the first day of their sick-leave (so-called ‘karensdag’). It’s obviously been essential to limit the spread of covid that this penalty has been temporarily suspended, but let’s not pretend that Sweden has been some sort of specially enlightened welfare haven for the sick. That situation ended a long time ago.
- anticristi 6y ago
  Eliminating the "karensdag" kind of proves my point: Sweden did take measures, essentially buying the population into voluntary isolation. I agree that this is less dramatic to report on than full-blown lockdowns enforced with police action. What picture do you put on the front page? A dad calming staying home and enjoying time with his kids? :) However, calling these measures "herd immunity" is misleading. Also, even after eliminating the "karensdag" Sweden was in a way better welfare position than e.g. US, where worker were going unprotected and sick to work, for fear of losing their job.

jordanbeiber 6y ago

Fellow resident - I’ve been home with all three of my kids whole of last week because runny nose. Pre-schools and schools are super strict. It’s tough times as a parent, kids have runny noses in the autumn/winter... I’m 100% WFH anyways because this is the general recommendation - if you can stay home.

raverbashing 6y ago

I'd add a couple more factors: - More people working from home, both given the type of job they do and the trust by bosses (as opposed to France or Italy where a government suggestion to WFH means almost nothing to the bosses) - Less people per household - People might just literally keep their space more

jeandejean 6y ago

That's because the media are craving for examples to prove their points, but if they don't have facts, they just fake them...

lazyasciiart 6y ago

Because the strategy is herd immunity by every definition except official labeling. That is not a media characterisation, it is the standard understanding in medical communities. Eg ". “They did not want to put it bluntly, but seeking herd immunity was always inherent in the Swedish strategy,” says Anders Bjorkman, a professor of infectious diseases at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm." https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2376 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2376

anticristi 6y ago
The word "herd immunity" is used by the media with a very specific meaning. It is meant to refer to an unethical practice of taking insufficient action and just letting people die. As many pointed out on HN, the media does not understand that vaccination is also herd immunity. At any rate, with the commonly used meaning of "herd immunity", this is not what Sweden does.
- lazyasciiart 6y ago
  No, it is not. The media in my experience has been quite clear that it may or may not involve vaccination, and that Sweden has been attempting to achieve it without vaccination. And the actual private statements of those managing it also talk about achieving widespread immunity through natural infection, not vaccination Eg, Newsweek: ' "herd immunity," which is when up to 70 percent of the population have either been given a vaccination or been infected, impacting the rate of the virus spread.' Giesecke to Tegnell: "it will all come to an end when so many have been infected and become therefore immune that the virus has nowhere else to go (so-called herd immunity)," Tegnell to Giesecke: "as immunity rises in the population, the rate of spread of the disease decreases, ....Is there a way of modelling how the spread comes to a halt?" https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-emails-anders-tegnell-johan-giesecke-herd-immunity-coronavirus-1524847 https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-emails-anders-tegnell-johan-...
  - eesmith 6y ago
    From the linked-to Nature article: > Earlier in the pandemic, media reports claimed that Sweden was pursuing a herd immunity strategy by essentially letting people live their lives as normal, but that idea is a “misunderstanding”, according to the country’s minister for health and social affairs, Lena Hallengren. Herd immunity “is a potential consequence of how the spread of the virus develops, in Sweden or in any other country”, she told Nature in a written statement, but it is “not a part of our strategy”. Sweden’s approach, she said, uses similar tools to most other countries: “Promoting social distancing, protecting vulnerable people, carrying out testing and contact tracing, and reinforcing our health system to cope with the pandemic.”

null_object 6y ago

> Another "inconvenient truth", thanks to good welfare, there is not "come to work sick" heroism in Sweden. You are basically paid to keep your kids and yourself at home, for as little as a running nose. That’s been the case with Covid - but before March Swedish workers were basically docked one day’s entire pay for the first day of their sick-leave (so-called ‘karensdag’). It’s obviously been essential to limit the spread of covid that this penalty has been temporarily suspended, but let’s not pretend that Sweden has been some sort of specially enlightened welfare haven for the sick. That situation ended a long time ago.

anticristi 6y ago
Eliminating the "karensdag" kind of proves my point: Sweden did take measures, essentially buying the population into voluntary isolation. I agree that this is less dramatic to report on than full-blown lockdowns enforced with police action. What picture do you put on the front page? A dad calming staying home and enjoying time with his kids? :) However, calling these measures "herd immunity" is misleading. Also, even after eliminating the "karensdag" Sweden was in a way better welfare position than e.g. US, where worker were going unprotected and sick to work, for fear of losing their job.