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You are treating VR like it's another browser. It's not. With cameras in every direction scanning and parsing your environment, data on your physical fitness an

by osobo 6y ago

You are treating VR like it's another browser. It's not. With cameras in every direction scanning and parsing your environment, data on your physical fitness and the always-on nature of the Quest 2 it is far more invasive than even Google Home speakers are. You offer a whole new set of very personal data to a company that has proven itself to mine it extensively for its own gain.

shajznnckfke 6y ago
Are you saying FB is trying to target ads based on 3D mapping of homes/bodies while the headset is lying around unused? Or what exactly is the theory here?
- osobo 6y ago
  If you own an Oculus, you know how eery the boundary mapping is. Before they switched it off, you'd be able to see your boundary from outside its fencing. Some users report being able to see the boundary from a different room. So not only does the headset map your environment inside the boundary, it actually maps and parses the rest as well. It doesn't have GPS so it wouldn't know how otherwise to determine your position relative to the boundary. This means Oculus maps every space it is in, including the objects in it. Really, this tells FB far more about your life and general affluence than any type of browsing behavior ever could. Same goes for fitness tracking. Inside actual fitness games but in other VR titles as well. Again, this generates a ton of very personal data that, combined with other databases, unlocks a ton of value for advertisers. This is why FB is so adamant about using FB profiles, even banning users if they make a guest account: For all this data to be really valuable, you need to be able to have it down to an individual resolution (that is: You know all the data is generated by a single individual, so you can combine it). All of this, combined with existing data-generation, is a whole new level of invasion of privacy.
  - vrperson 6y ago
    So far, targeted ads don't really seem to work that well (studies have found). I don't think getting the size of my rooms will be that much of an improvement. They can infer maybe how much money I have, but they can probably already guess that from my address and my credit card company also knows. It's not even clear that the data about my rooms is transferred to Facebook. I don't think making better targeted ads is the play here. I think they want to dominate social networking, and they think a lot of social networking will take place in VR in the future.
    - osobo 6y ago
      Can you link me one of those studies? Assuming it's about modern hyper-targeted social media content based advertising, not last decade's old-school banners.
      - KaiserPro 6y ago
        room shape isn't exactly a killer segmentation for advertising. The content inside a room would be. But it would costa shittonne in GPU time to do that reliably, so it would cost a boatload.
    - RhodoYolo 6y ago
      This is complete nonsense and doesn't pass the face-value check. Why would all the tech companies hire thousands of engineers to fine tune an algorithmn that was proven to be worse?
  - saddlerustle 6y ago
    There's no reason to believe this. If facebook was uploading scans of your home for some reason, it has to be disclosed in the privacy policy. If you think the privacy policy is lying, then it's easy enough to find the code responsible and create a scandal.
    - SturgeonsLaw 6y ago
      > Physical Features: We collect information about your physical features and dimensions, such as your estimated hand size when you enable hand tracking. > Environmental, Dimensions and Movement Data: We collect information about your environment, physical movements and dimensions when you use an XR device. > We use information we collect when you use Oculus Products for the purposes described in the Facebook Data Policy under "How do we use this information?", including to provide, personalise and improve the Facebook Products (including seamless integration between the Facebook Products); to provide measurement, analytics and other business services (including ads) https://www.oculus.com/legal/privacy-policy/ https://www.oculus.com/legal/privacy-policy/ It's right there in black and white, they measure the dimensions of the participant and the environment, link it to a Facebook account, and use it to target ads.
      - YokoZar 6y ago
        As an advertiser, how would I take advantage of this? Can I click a box on Facebook to target my ads to people with small hands?
      - KaiserPro 6y ago
        Your over estimation of how good facebook are at room mapping is cute. Do you know why those clauses are in the legal agreement? its because otherwise they can't make the slam cameras work. Which means you need light houses. Also when you submit a bug, I'm pretty sure it uploads the state of the SLAM map, which would be impossible if they didn't have the legal cover. Now thats not to say that if they had the tech they _would_ use those bits of information. However they don't because they really don't have the tech yet. Firstly the features that the oculus extracts from the SLAM cameras really arn't great for room mapping. Well, the cameras are fine, the feature extractor isn't. it works short term, but not for long term, or dense reconstruction. Secondly, streaming 4x slam cameras at 60hz isn't trivial in a lab, let alone on with a battery on wifi on a generic internet connection. Thirdly, facebook dont have anywhere near enough GPUs do the required classification/mesh generation/segmentation etc. Finally there isn't a RGB camera.
  - KaiserPro 6y ago
    > Some users report being able to see the boundary from a different room. This is relocalisation. Two things to note here 1) Facebook don't have enough GPUs to do this properly at scale. 2) For that kind of thing to work it needs either a GPS prior, or much more robust SLAM. the oculus isft doesn't have enough CPU/GPU to make robust multi-room maps (with big occlusions that is) > This is why FB is so adamant about using FB profiles, even banning users if they make a guest account: Its far more mundane than that. Its all about branding. The "brand" is all about "One facebook" or someshit so they want everyone to be interoperable. Thats why messenger and instgram are now able to communicate. I assume whatsapp will be added to that as well. You're assumption is that facebook are a coherent force for evil. They really aren't that well organised. They are a collection of highly paid, naive tech people. Surrounded by some people with experience.
- ux-app 6y ago
  don't be naive. If there is even a single penny to be made from mapping homes/bodies then it is already happening. Open your eyes.
Fnoord 6y ago
Remember the outcry regarding Google Glass. They went with smart speaker instead and combined it with 360 degrees speaker. Its like how I remember Microsoft in ~2001. There was an RCE in Windows Media Player, and they patched it. But the update containing that patch also added DRM functionality. How they got away with that, I still don't understand.
- lkramer 6y ago
  The difference is that other people was upset by people wearing google glass, effectively making the unwilling participants. Google Home is people's own decision within their own home.
snvzz 6y ago
>Google Home speakers You mean microphones.

by osobo 6y ago

shajznnckfke 6y ago

Are you saying FB is trying to target ads based on 3D mapping of homes/bodies while the headset is lying around unused? Or what exactly is the theory here?

osobo 6y ago
If you own an Oculus, you know how eery the boundary mapping is. Before they switched it off, you'd be able to see your boundary from outside its fencing. Some users report being able to see the boundary from a different room. So not only does the headset map your environment inside the boundary, it actually maps and parses the rest as well. It doesn't have GPS so it wouldn't know how otherwise to determine your position relative to the boundary. This means Oculus maps every space it is in, including the objects in it. Really, this tells FB far more about your life and general affluence than any type of browsing behavior ever could. Same goes for fitness tracking. Inside actual fitness games but in other VR titles as well. Again, this generates a ton of very personal data that, combined with other databases, unlocks a ton of value for advertisers. This is why FB is so adamant about using FB profiles, even banning users if they make a guest account: For all this data to be really valuable, you need to be able to have it down to an individual resolution (that is: You know all the data is generated by a single individual, so you can combine it). All of this, combined with existing data-generation, is a whole new level of invasion of privacy.
- vrperson 6y ago
  So far, targeted ads don't really seem to work that well (studies have found). I don't think getting the size of my rooms will be that much of an improvement. They can infer maybe how much money I have, but they can probably already guess that from my address and my credit card company also knows. It's not even clear that the data about my rooms is transferred to Facebook. I don't think making better targeted ads is the play here. I think they want to dominate social networking, and they think a lot of social networking will take place in VR in the future.
  - osobo 6y ago
    Can you link me one of those studies? Assuming it's about modern hyper-targeted social media content based advertising, not last decade's old-school banners.
    - KaiserPro 6y ago
      room shape isn't exactly a killer segmentation for advertising. The content inside a room would be. But it would costa shittonne in GPU time to do that reliably, so it would cost a boatload.
  - RhodoYolo 6y ago
    This is complete nonsense and doesn't pass the face-value check. Why would all the tech companies hire thousands of engineers to fine tune an algorithmn that was proven to be worse?
- saddlerustle 6y ago
  There's no reason to believe this. If facebook was uploading scans of your home for some reason, it has to be disclosed in the privacy policy. If you think the privacy policy is lying, then it's easy enough to find the code responsible and create a scandal.
  - SturgeonsLaw 6y ago
    > Physical Features: We collect information about your physical features and dimensions, such as your estimated hand size when you enable hand tracking. > Environmental, Dimensions and Movement Data: We collect information about your environment, physical movements and dimensions when you use an XR device. > We use information we collect when you use Oculus Products for the purposes described in the Facebook Data Policy under "How do we use this information?", including to provide, personalise and improve the Facebook Products (including seamless integration between the Facebook Products); to provide measurement, analytics and other business services (including ads) https://www.oculus.com/legal/privacy-policy/ https://www.oculus.com/legal/privacy-policy/ It's right there in black and white, they measure the dimensions of the participant and the environment, link it to a Facebook account, and use it to target ads.
    - YokoZar 6y ago
      As an advertiser, how would I take advantage of this? Can I click a box on Facebook to target my ads to people with small hands?
    - KaiserPro 6y ago
      Your over estimation of how good facebook are at room mapping is cute. Do you know why those clauses are in the legal agreement? its because otherwise they can't make the slam cameras work. Which means you need light houses. Also when you submit a bug, I'm pretty sure it uploads the state of the SLAM map, which would be impossible if they didn't have the legal cover. Now thats not to say that if they had the tech they _would_ use those bits of information. However they don't because they really don't have the tech yet. Firstly the features that the oculus extracts from the SLAM cameras really arn't great for room mapping. Well, the cameras are fine, the feature extractor isn't. it works short term, but not for long term, or dense reconstruction. Secondly, streaming 4x slam cameras at 60hz isn't trivial in a lab, let alone on with a battery on wifi on a generic internet connection. Thirdly, facebook dont have anywhere near enough GPUs do the required classification/mesh generation/segmentation etc. Finally there isn't a RGB camera.
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  > Some users report being able to see the boundary from a different room. This is relocalisation. Two things to note here 1) Facebook don't have enough GPUs to do this properly at scale. 2) For that kind of thing to work it needs either a GPS prior, or much more robust SLAM. the oculus isft doesn't have enough CPU/GPU to make robust multi-room maps (with big occlusions that is) > This is why FB is so adamant about using FB profiles, even banning users if they make a guest account: Its far more mundane than that. Its all about branding. The "brand" is all about "One facebook" or someshit so they want everyone to be interoperable. Thats why messenger and instgram are now able to communicate. I assume whatsapp will be added to that as well. You're assumption is that facebook are a coherent force for evil. They really aren't that well organised. They are a collection of highly paid, naive tech people. Surrounded by some people with experience.
ux-app 6y ago
don't be naive. If there is even a single penny to be made from mapping homes/bodies then it is already happening. Open your eyes.

Fnoord 6y ago

Remember the outcry regarding Google Glass. They went with smart speaker instead and combined it with 360 degrees speaker. Its like how I remember Microsoft in ~2001. There was an RCE in Windows Media Player, and they patched it. But the update containing that patch also added DRM functionality. How they got away with that, I still don't understand.

lkramer 6y ago
The difference is that other people was upset by people wearing google glass, effectively making the unwilling participants. Google Home is people's own decision within their own home.

snvzz 6y ago

>Google Home speakers You mean microphones.