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Nobody wants to read this on HN. If you disagree post why you disagree, an insult like this serves no purpose other than alienating alternative opinions. If I h

Nobody wants to read this on HN. If you disagree post why you disagree, an insult like this serves no purpose other than alienating alternative opinions. If I had the karma I would flag you.

seppin 6y ago
Excusing / advocating genocide isn't a "both sides" issue. It is disgusting and has no place here, or anywhere else.
- nendroid 6y ago
  Nobody is advocating genocide here. This is completely obvious, it is not his intention... you are exaggerating the situation. Who in their right mind would do this? And if you read his post it's obvious he is not doing this. The chinese actions are atrocious but an accusation of saying that holocaust level genocide is getting advocated here is a huge difference. You can tell him he's wrong because you believe that the chinese are conducting genocide. You do not start a witch hunt by accusing him of advocating genocide which he obviously is not doing.
  - seppin 6y ago
    > you are exaggerating the situation I am going off first hand accounts and confirmed facts. What are you doing? >The chinese actions are atrocious but "concentration camps are bad but.." No but. There's no but there. > holocaust level genocide No one said that. This is the logical fallacy you are committing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum > you believe that the chinese are conducting genocide. Reducing this to a "two sides" issue is shameless deflection. What part of the dozens of reporting done on Xinjiang do you think is false, and what facts are you basing that on? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-built-380-internment-camps-in-xinjiang-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...
    - nerdtime 6y ago
      >Excusing / advocating genocide Genocide is a very serious accusation. The word is thrown around in this thread in a trivial way as if you can accuse anyone of advocating it. Let me spell it out for you: Pretty much no one advocates this. You're coming at him saying "I never said it was at holocaust levels" as if that makes a huge difference. This is mass human slaughter we're talking about. He described it with the word "Holocaust" for two reasons. To detrivialize the usage of the word and because I've seen numbers being thrown around as if millions of people were exterminated. >"concentration camps are bad but.." No but. There's no but there. There is indeed a but. The US put the japanese in concentration camps in the past. This does not raise them to the same position as Hitler gassing the jews. >I am going off first hand accounts and confirmed facts. What are you doing? Confirmed facts of genocide? Show me some pictures. Show some proof. The seriousness of the accusation demands serious evidence. >Reducing this to a "two sides" issue is shameless deflection. What part of the dozens of reporting done on Xinjiang do you think is false, and what facts are you basing that on? He's reducing the issue to an "all sides" issue. Insulting an alternative view point is reducing it to a "one side" issue. Let's keep things utterly clear here. It is completely wrong to build internment camps. Completely. But it is also completely and utterly wrong to silence another view point and accuse someone of genocide. You don't solve an issue by attacking the people who created the internment camps without understanding the situation which caused them deploy such drastic procedures in the first place.
      - seppin 6y ago
        > Let me spell it out for you: Pretty much no one advocates this. Oh I'm well aware (almost) no one will come out explicitly and endorse concentration camps. What they do is almost more insidious, they justify them. They rationalize them. They spin them as something they are not. I'd rather someone be an open Nazi than to perform their mental gymnastics in public to avoid challenging their world view on something as simple as "mass interment camps are bad." "Well you see they aren't interment camps...they were criminals anyways...how dare you compare a work camp to a death camp?" It's sickening, all of it. Your spin of "it's not the same as the holocaust" (no one said it is) and "yeah but whatabout the US!" is sadly par for the course.
  - ahthat 6y ago
    I suppose it’s possible, sometimes there is no “good” side, both sides might be bad and have committed atrocities.
    - nerdtime 6y ago
      And it's also possible China is completely in the wrong. I'm not even advocating for an even sided situation, I'm advocating understanding the situation first before throwing an accusation. What we do know is this... we have people on the inside of Hong Kong and we know that in Hong Kong China is not conducting mass genocide or opening up re-education camps in Hong Kong. This is different from what's happening with the Uighurs... we need to know what prompted China to react much more heavily against the Uighurs (as opposed to Hong Kong) and we also need to confirm whether the alleged "genocide" is real. The post that was called disgusting is indeed a valid alternative viewpoint quite possibly from someone closer to the situation than your average white guy. Also keep the outrage in check. Even a modern western country in 2020 is capable of this crap. The US has their own detention camps open today. It exists using a technique called extraordinary rendition to get around American laws. The camp is called gitmo and there are some real pictures about some really horrible shit that went down at gitmo.
      - seppin 6y ago
        > I'm advocating understanding the situation first before throwing an accusation. "We don't know what's going on" is a lie. We know. Some people chose to ignore / justify. You are sadly in good company when it comes to the history of denying genocide.
        nendroid 6y ago
        > "We don't know what's going on" is a lie. We know. I'm not lying, but I could be mistaken. I'm not mistaken about the rape of nanking or the holocaust. There are pictures of mass slaughter, graves and even severed heads on the pikes of japanese soldiers to confirm the depravity and existence of these events. My own grandfather witnessed the events and tells me first hand accounts of the rivers of blood in nanking. The japanese denial is sickening, and you accusing me, a descendent of victims of such slaughter, as someone who denies genocide displays incredible immaturity. I am not denying genocide, I am simply saying extreme accusations need extreme evidence. So your next task is clear: Show me pictures of the same slaughter that you claim the chinese are doing right now. I promise you I will do a full 180 if you show me some actual pictures of the massacre that you claim is happening right at this very moment. Show me some dead bodies, executions... etc.. etc.
mda 6y ago
Don't be patronizing please, it was fully deserved and I absolutely don't mind readindg it.
- nendroid 6y ago
  I minded. Because his opinion is in line with what the Chinese perspective. We as americans vehemently disagree, but a chinese citizen, after witnessing several terrorist attacks by the Uighur which slaughtered hundreds of chinese people, will obviously have a different perspective. This isn't a one time isolated incident... these were multiple attacks occurring with no end in sight. Rather than not minding insults to opinions you disagree with, why don't you have an open mind and post why you disagree rather then insult the person you disagree with?
  - frequentnapper 6y ago
    Uighur attacks only happened after a decade of repression. The CCP govt moved Han chinese into the region and took away employment and other things that Uighurs used to enjoy turning them into second class citizens. Some people out of frustration committed the attacks which is exactly what CCP wanted to fully go in and start clearing and fully occupying them. You sound like a Han Chinese. Imagine yourself in their shoes. There's lots of Chinese diaspora in other countries. What if one of the countries decided to do that with the Han Chinese? Would you still side with the host country?
    - nendroid 6y ago
      I'm not. Imagine yourself in the shoes of the person who was killed by a bombing. Imagine yourself knowing family members or your kids getting slaughtered by these terrorist attacks. Let me put it to you clearly. The situation is complex, no side is right, but to bury the action of one side and justify the actions of another because it's convenient for some stupid US-China rivalry is the wrong way to view it. I'm not saying either side was right. I'm saying it's wrong to comment on how this is disgusting. It is a valid opposing perspective, just like how your perspective is valid. What isn't valid is insults and a mass mob mentality.
eloff 6y ago
This is not merely expressing an opinion, it's justifying genocide. It's abhorrent, on the level of holocaust denial.
- nerdtime 6y ago
  No it's not. First off he's not advocating genocide and second off you need proof that genocide is happening before you can make such a serious accusation. You're telling me that a holocaust level genocide is happening in China right now? Serious accusations require serious evidence. Prove it. Something like pictures of mass graves like the ones you've seen in the holocaust or the rape of nanking is sufficient for me to do a complete 180. What's going on here is mob mentality and you're part of it.

Nobody wants to read this on HN. If you disagree post why you disagree, an insult like this serves no purpose other than alienating alternative opinions. If I had the karma I would flag you.

seppin 6y ago

Excusing / advocating genocide isn't a "both sides" issue. It is disgusting and has no place here, or anywhere else.

nendroid 6y ago
Nobody is advocating genocide here. This is completely obvious, it is not his intention... you are exaggerating the situation. Who in their right mind would do this? And if you read his post it's obvious he is not doing this. The chinese actions are atrocious but an accusation of saying that holocaust level genocide is getting advocated here is a huge difference. You can tell him he's wrong because you believe that the chinese are conducting genocide. You do not start a witch hunt by accusing him of advocating genocide which he obviously is not doing.
- seppin 6y ago
  > you are exaggerating the situation I am going off first hand accounts and confirmed facts. What are you doing? >The chinese actions are atrocious but "concentration camps are bad but.." No but. There's no but there. > holocaust level genocide No one said that. This is the logical fallacy you are committing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum > you believe that the chinese are conducting genocide. Reducing this to a "two sides" issue is shameless deflection. What part of the dozens of reporting done on Xinjiang do you think is false, and what facts are you basing that on? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-built-380-internment-camps-in-xinjiang-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...
  - nerdtime 6y ago
    >Excusing / advocating genocide Genocide is a very serious accusation. The word is thrown around in this thread in a trivial way as if you can accuse anyone of advocating it. Let me spell it out for you: Pretty much no one advocates this. You're coming at him saying "I never said it was at holocaust levels" as if that makes a huge difference. This is mass human slaughter we're talking about. He described it with the word "Holocaust" for two reasons. To detrivialize the usage of the word and because I've seen numbers being thrown around as if millions of people were exterminated. >"concentration camps are bad but.." No but. There's no but there. There is indeed a but. The US put the japanese in concentration camps in the past. This does not raise them to the same position as Hitler gassing the jews. >I am going off first hand accounts and confirmed facts. What are you doing? Confirmed facts of genocide? Show me some pictures. Show some proof. The seriousness of the accusation demands serious evidence. >Reducing this to a "two sides" issue is shameless deflection. What part of the dozens of reporting done on Xinjiang do you think is false, and what facts are you basing that on? He's reducing the issue to an "all sides" issue. Insulting an alternative view point is reducing it to a "one side" issue. Let's keep things utterly clear here. It is completely wrong to build internment camps. Completely. But it is also completely and utterly wrong to silence another view point and accuse someone of genocide. You don't solve an issue by attacking the people who created the internment camps without understanding the situation which caused them deploy such drastic procedures in the first place.
    - seppin 6y ago
      > Let me spell it out for you: Pretty much no one advocates this. Oh I'm well aware (almost) no one will come out explicitly and endorse concentration camps. What they do is almost more insidious, they justify them. They rationalize them. They spin them as something they are not. I'd rather someone be an open Nazi than to perform their mental gymnastics in public to avoid challenging their world view on something as simple as "mass interment camps are bad." "Well you see they aren't interment camps...they were criminals anyways...how dare you compare a work camp to a death camp?" It's sickening, all of it. Your spin of "it's not the same as the holocaust" (no one said it is) and "yeah but whatabout the US!" is sadly par for the course.
- ahthat 6y ago
  I suppose it’s possible, sometimes there is no “good” side, both sides might be bad and have committed atrocities.
  - nerdtime 6y ago
    And it's also possible China is completely in the wrong. I'm not even advocating for an even sided situation, I'm advocating understanding the situation first before throwing an accusation. What we do know is this... we have people on the inside of Hong Kong and we know that in Hong Kong China is not conducting mass genocide or opening up re-education camps in Hong Kong. This is different from what's happening with the Uighurs... we need to know what prompted China to react much more heavily against the Uighurs (as opposed to Hong Kong) and we also need to confirm whether the alleged "genocide" is real. The post that was called disgusting is indeed a valid alternative viewpoint quite possibly from someone closer to the situation than your average white guy. Also keep the outrage in check. Even a modern western country in 2020 is capable of this crap. The US has their own detention camps open today. It exists using a technique called extraordinary rendition to get around American laws. The camp is called gitmo and there are some real pictures about some really horrible shit that went down at gitmo.
    - seppin 6y ago
      > I'm advocating understanding the situation first before throwing an accusation. "We don't know what's going on" is a lie. We know. Some people chose to ignore / justify. You are sadly in good company when it comes to the history of denying genocide.
      - nendroid 6y ago
        > "We don't know what's going on" is a lie. We know. I'm not lying, but I could be mistaken. I'm not mistaken about the rape of nanking or the holocaust. There are pictures of mass slaughter, graves and even severed heads on the pikes of japanese soldiers to confirm the depravity and existence of these events. My own grandfather witnessed the events and tells me first hand accounts of the rivers of blood in nanking. The japanese denial is sickening, and you accusing me, a descendent of victims of such slaughter, as someone who denies genocide displays incredible immaturity. I am not denying genocide, I am simply saying extreme accusations need extreme evidence. So your next task is clear: Show me pictures of the same slaughter that you claim the chinese are doing right now. I promise you I will do a full 180 if you show me some actual pictures of the massacre that you claim is happening right at this very moment. Show me some dead bodies, executions... etc.. etc.

mda 6y ago

Don't be patronizing please, it was fully deserved and I absolutely don't mind readindg it.

nendroid 6y ago
I minded. Because his opinion is in line with what the Chinese perspective. We as americans vehemently disagree, but a chinese citizen, after witnessing several terrorist attacks by the Uighur which slaughtered hundreds of chinese people, will obviously have a different perspective. This isn't a one time isolated incident... these were multiple attacks occurring with no end in sight. Rather than not minding insults to opinions you disagree with, why don't you have an open mind and post why you disagree rather then insult the person you disagree with?
- frequentnapper 6y ago
  Uighur attacks only happened after a decade of repression. The CCP govt moved Han chinese into the region and took away employment and other things that Uighurs used to enjoy turning them into second class citizens. Some people out of frustration committed the attacks which is exactly what CCP wanted to fully go in and start clearing and fully occupying them. You sound like a Han Chinese. Imagine yourself in their shoes. There's lots of Chinese diaspora in other countries. What if one of the countries decided to do that with the Han Chinese? Would you still side with the host country?
  - nendroid 6y ago
    I'm not. Imagine yourself in the shoes of the person who was killed by a bombing. Imagine yourself knowing family members or your kids getting slaughtered by these terrorist attacks. Let me put it to you clearly. The situation is complex, no side is right, but to bury the action of one side and justify the actions of another because it's convenient for some stupid US-China rivalry is the wrong way to view it. I'm not saying either side was right. I'm saying it's wrong to comment on how this is disgusting. It is a valid opposing perspective, just like how your perspective is valid. What isn't valid is insults and a mass mob mentality.

eloff 6y ago

This is not merely expressing an opinion, it's justifying genocide. It's abhorrent, on the level of holocaust denial.

nerdtime 6y ago
No it's not. First off he's not advocating genocide and second off you need proof that genocide is happening before you can make such a serious accusation. You're telling me that a holocaust level genocide is happening in China right now? Serious accusations require serious evidence. Prove it. Something like pictures of mass graves like the ones you've seen in the holocaust or the rape of nanking is sufficient for me to do a complete 180. What's going on here is mob mentality and you're part of it.