4 ms·

> There are probably 10 guys like him for every person who actually is so broke there is no way out...This is what America's "poor" looks like, it is far more a

> There are probably 10 guys like him for every person who actually is so broke there is no way out...This is what America's "poor" looks like, it is far more a mental state than concrete reality. No, this is what poverty looks like in the strawman you've built up in your head. I guarantee you the person you describe exists, and is just as you describe - but they're also not representative of American poverty. But they're certainly the caricature of it that certain groups love to push for political reasons and have been doing so consistently for decades. In the 80s it went by the myth of the 'welfare queens'. A caricature that was demonstrably false - but that didn't stop it from becoming a commonly held perspective at the time (people have since learned the truth). And the process goes back further than that.

BurningFrog 6y ago
I won't speculate about numbers, but until I dealt with people with "spending problems", I had NO IDEA seemingly smart people could be like that! Simplest way to describe it is that their definition of "I can afford X" is "right now I have more money than X costs". Really! These people will of course always be poor, regardless of income, subsidies etc. How many they are is an empirical question, and I haven't seen any data. One idea to handle them I like is to pay people daily, instead of monthly/biweekly. In the modern computerized world, that should be simple, and could really help some people.
- FlyMoreRockets 6y ago
  Living month to month from cash reserves is the general way to describe this mindset, and is is the reason the nation sees a significant increase in purchases of durable goods when tax returns roll in each spring. Your idea of daily payouts is a very clever hack on the system and deserves a practical trial. It would be most interesting to see if it encourages inceased savings on this scale.
tjs8rj 6y ago
Asking in good faith: data to back you up? Just my anecdata, growing up living in apartments with 8 siblings at one point, many friends who grew up in foster homes and trailer parks - maybe 1 or 2 I could recall who were “doing everything right” but still poor, and that seemed primarily because they were on disability and elderly. The rest? Spent every paycheck, griped about immigrants and how the govt takes too much, bought lottery tickets, tons of toys at Christmas. One couple even lost had his kids taken away by CPS, was told they’d get them back once they could move out of the hotel they were living in and demonstrate they could stick to a budget - they spent their tax refund on a used Mustang. Perhaps there are plenty of people who save what they can, make smart financial decisions, and STILL struggle in poverty. That’s not the case in my experience, but I’d love to be wrong. The hardest part about escaping may just be having no clue how to, or just plain refusing to implement it.
- nickff 6y ago
  (Economist) Bryan Caplan is currently working on a book, and his research so far seems to agree with your points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAaCpyuwRIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAaCpyuwRIw
  - lostdog 6y ago
    Caplan is very right wing ("the homeless still smile!"). The talk was still okish, but the points of view come from one side and could use some balance. Blaming poverty on "impulsive sex" and leaving blameless the policies of limiting birth control and freedom of choice is a pretty myopic point of view.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      Caplan is a libertarian. You'll never see anything like his pro open borders book from the right wing: https://www.amazon.com/Open-Borders-Science-Ethics-Immigration/dp/1250316960 https://www.amazon.com/Open-Borders-Science-Ethics-Immigrati...
      - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        A fair amount of libertarians are right wing. This is true even if one supports something or another that happens to not be stereotypically right wing.
        BurningFrog 6y ago
        Broadly, libertarians agree with the right on economics and the left on social issues.
- Ewigkeit 6y ago
  Ditto. My family would spend all of their savings on Christmas presents, which would generally never exceed 500 dollars. They felt it was beneath them to follow the advice I gave them from early retirement blogs. My mothers partner bought an expensive riding lawnmower when my little brother needed many of his baby teeth treated due to baby bottle carries (totally preventable if you follow the advice of almost any baby book). He was too proud to sign his name to get free dental care for my brother so he suffered/had teeth pulled. My mother would super glue a tooth of hers back into her mouth and get reoccurring infections and pay for the antibiotics instead of getting it properly taken care of. My mother will be government assistance of the rest of her life. She has taken no initiative to learn a skill/find a job. I can imagine her working as a receptionist or Walmart greeter but beyond this there are just some people like her who are too broken from abuse/health problems or have a very low IQ. I escaped poverty/child homelessness/covert sexual abuse. Moving to Silicon Valley to work in bioengineering was extremely difficult. I know no one else in real life who came from a similar background who has made it this far.

BurningFrog 6y ago

I won't speculate about numbers, but until I dealt with people with "spending problems", I had NO IDEA seemingly smart people could be like that! Simplest way to describe it is that their definition of "I can afford X" is "right now I have more money than X costs". Really! These people will of course always be poor, regardless of income, subsidies etc. How many they are is an empirical question, and I haven't seen any data. One idea to handle them I like is to pay people daily, instead of monthly/biweekly. In the modern computerized world, that should be simple, and could really help some people.

FlyMoreRockets 6y ago
Living month to month from cash reserves is the general way to describe this mindset, and is is the reason the nation sees a significant increase in purchases of durable goods when tax returns roll in each spring. Your idea of daily payouts is a very clever hack on the system and deserves a practical trial. It would be most interesting to see if it encourages inceased savings on this scale.

tjs8rj 6y ago

Asking in good faith: data to back you up? Just my anecdata, growing up living in apartments with 8 siblings at one point, many friends who grew up in foster homes and trailer parks - maybe 1 or 2 I could recall who were “doing everything right” but still poor, and that seemed primarily because they were on disability and elderly. The rest? Spent every paycheck, griped about immigrants and how the govt takes too much, bought lottery tickets, tons of toys at Christmas. One couple even lost had his kids taken away by CPS, was told they’d get them back once they could move out of the hotel they were living in and demonstrate they could stick to a budget - they spent their tax refund on a used Mustang. Perhaps there are plenty of people who save what they can, make smart financial decisions, and STILL struggle in poverty. That’s not the case in my experience, but I’d love to be wrong. The hardest part about escaping may just be having no clue how to, or just plain refusing to implement it.

nickff 6y ago
(Economist) Bryan Caplan is currently working on a book, and his research so far seems to agree with your points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAaCpyuwRIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAaCpyuwRIw
- lostdog 6y ago
  Caplan is very right wing ("the homeless still smile!"). The talk was still okish, but the points of view come from one side and could use some balance. Blaming poverty on "impulsive sex" and leaving blameless the policies of limiting birth control and freedom of choice is a pretty myopic point of view.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    Caplan is a libertarian. You'll never see anything like his pro open borders book from the right wing: https://www.amazon.com/Open-Borders-Science-Ethics-Immigration/dp/1250316960 https://www.amazon.com/Open-Borders-Science-Ethics-Immigrati...
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      A fair amount of libertarians are right wing. This is true even if one supports something or another that happens to not be stereotypically right wing.
      - BurningFrog 6y ago
        Broadly, libertarians agree with the right on economics and the left on social issues.
Ewigkeit 6y ago
Ditto. My family would spend all of their savings on Christmas presents, which would generally never exceed 500 dollars. They felt it was beneath them to follow the advice I gave them from early retirement blogs. My mothers partner bought an expensive riding lawnmower when my little brother needed many of his baby teeth treated due to baby bottle carries (totally preventable if you follow the advice of almost any baby book). He was too proud to sign his name to get free dental care for my brother so he suffered/had teeth pulled. My mother would super glue a tooth of hers back into her mouth and get reoccurring infections and pay for the antibiotics instead of getting it properly taken care of. My mother will be government assistance of the rest of her life. She has taken no initiative to learn a skill/find a job. I can imagine her working as a receptionist or Walmart greeter but beyond this there are just some people like her who are too broken from abuse/health problems or have a very low IQ. I escaped poverty/child homelessness/covert sexual abuse. Moving to Silicon Valley to work in bioengineering was extremely difficult. I know no one else in real life who came from a similar background who has made it this far.