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I am a mid-senior level employee at a non-tech semi startup. It sucks. The founder wants everybody to work at his pace, and since he’s your boss, you have to mo

I am a mid-senior level employee at a non-tech semi startup. It sucks. The founder wants everybody to work at his pace, and since he’s your boss, you have to mostly. There isn’t much growth for pay increases or promotions since it’s not a large company, and job security isn’t the best because it’s a semi startup. And since the founder is paying you directly from his pockets, he really wants to extract a full pound of flesh for every dollar he gives you. He promised a few of the more senior employees a cut if we got external money, but when we got that, he didn’t give it to them and they both left to form their own company. Working in a small startup style company without negotiating a cut of the ownership via shares, is being a sucker - you do 80% of the work & intensity for the owner and are left with not much if it takes off, unless you can find a good enough company that promotes you as it grows larger, and not just replace you because they can afford somebody with more credentials. Some people may come back and say not to join such companies but pick wiser, but the harsh reality is that most of these startups founders are narcissistic and would sell you out for a dollar. This is a just a warning and insight to anyone thinking of joining these companies. For me, I can’t wait until the pandemic ends and I can find a better job elsewhere.

yowlingcat 6y ago
> Some people may come back and say not to join such companies but pick wiser, but the harsh reality is that most of these startups founders are narcissistic and would sell you out for a dollar. That may be the case but there is a world of difference between what you are describing and every hypergrowth Series B+ company with reputable top tier VCs I've worked at. Maybe part of the problem is the "non-tech semi startup" part -- tech startups, while still having founders who "would sell you out for a dollar" must nonetheless participate in a labor market which is biased in their counterparty's favor. Why is this the case? The counterparty can work at a FAANG/newly public company, a quant fund/finance, and so there are bidders from multiple industries who want the top tier talent. Are you a technical employee or a non-technical employee? If the latter, have you considered making a transition towards working in a tech startup for better mobility, if you want to work in startups at all? I have run into all kinds of shenanigans in my tech startup employee days, but the general quality of life at the good companies was the best I've ever had.
- abhinav22 6y ago
  Agree that the labor market affects it a lot. Since I’m not in a “core” field for the company, I end up doing a lot more and getting a lot less than others who are more core to the company due to their positions (even if work wise, I basically do half their jobs already). Reputable VC backing would definitely be a positive signal for a better working environment — the big backers know that time and some amount of money (not wasting it) is required to build a startup up. They are also in a position to coach owners to treat their employees as assets not an expense
benjaminsuch 6y ago
I'm actually in the same spot but for a tech startup. But the founders are very nice and have a lot of good will. I'm working 12-14 hours every day because I want and I have fun doing the work. But even though I'm getting a lot less salary than I could have, I decided to keep grinding because I see way more opportunities and chances than my "personal loss". Imo, everyone working his ass off in a startup should make sure it's worth. And that, for me, means looking for opportunities regardless how shitty the founders may be. Being an early employee gives you a shit ton of responsibilities, but instead of seeing them as a burden, take them to shine and negotiate your future.
- ffdjjjffjj 6y ago
  This post reminds me of a younger me. The experience I got working hours like this at jobs like this was not as good as I thought. It was shallow and rushed, every cuttable corner was cut. And ultimately, it wasn’t worth it. You may not care about money now, but you will in 5 years when your friends are buying houses and your $5m ticket never got punched. Just my advice feel free to ignore. I probably would have!
  - alexpetralia 6y ago
    It is also very emblematic of a younger me. I worked because I couldn't for the life of me contrive anything better to do.
  - peter422 6y ago
    And the double penalty is that if your resume showed 2 years at a large, prestigious company, it will always count more than 2 years where you did a Herculean job at a small startup. But everybody should choose the path they want.
  - abhinav22 6y ago
    Yep, same here. I gave away my 20s for great experience but not as much pay I think I should have gotten and now I’m not as comfortable as I would like myself as a mid 30s worker. There are always good and bad cases of course - I’m hopeful that the parent of your post is a good case (we should always be optimistic!), so it’s not to bring him down but rather just share other experiences.
sokoloff 6y ago
The pandemic has changed job searching, but in some ways for the better. Your former co-workers are just as likely to hire you as before. Many companies are announcing they’re remote-friendly or remote-first, and some of them have no idea what to do next. Imagine the pandemic has 1-2 more years to run. Don’t let that delay lull you into forfeiting two more years of your short (work and non-work) life.
- abhinav22 6y ago
  Yep. My ex boss is starting up an office here, hopefully her company will allow her to expand and hire me. For me, I’m a bit stuck in a niche field in a niche region (don’t want to disclose too much in the rare case my boss reads), so it’s quite difficult to move around. Also as I’m no longer young, my salary is a bit higher than for young 20s so it’s not that easy to move into other adjacent fields. But the expenses are higher - with a partner and bills to support. Now I know what it feels like to get older!
research_pie 6y ago
Man, sorry for that it seems that you got into a toxic startup culture. My startup was a bit like this 10 months ago, the other founders were all about making sacrifices and working 999h per week. However, nothing was working out properly. I've made some drastic change to our culture to be more empathic, transparent and based on trust. Since then its way more enjoyable for everyone and we are way more productive. Salary for our employee are still under market, but we increase them whenever we have the chance and the financing. We aim to get to 10% above market value so that everyone is confortable. Also we've cut the 80h per week bullshit. If someone is working that much he is most likely doing a crappy job and needs to prioritize his day properly. Here is a series of concept/book I've implemented that drove the change: - Objective and Key Result: the only work that matter is those explicitly tied to the objective. There is a good book on that. - The book Drive, it helped us understand how to create a motivating environment for our employee. - The book Traction, it gave us a set of tools to make the business run smoother. - Effective DevOps: It gave us a blueprint on how to structure our technology developement and team interaction. - Peopleware: This was one of the best book that we've implemented. We moved to a remote-first company based on trust, we don't track time anymore and we don't care when people work. All that matter is objective attainement and the wellbeing of our employee. Let me known if you want to chat about this.
- solatic 6y ago
  Be careful with the combination of a ruthless pursuit of objectives, no explicit time tracking, and Peopleware-flavored advice not to interrupt people who are in maker-mode (which can easily be misunderstood as advice not to communicate). You have the makings of a culture where people bust their balls for 18 hours a day in order to meet their objectives and don't tell you that they're spending 18 hours and not 8 hours, because they don't want to rock the boat. Yes, meeting objectives matter. But setting the right objectives is a conversation between the business's wish list and the constraints of the resources that the business actually has. Trust is a two-way street; too many managers talk about trusting their workers but they don't talk about what they do to earn their workers' trust.
- abhinav22 6y ago
  That sounds like a great set of initiatives. But there is part selection bias for those posting on HN, they are probably on the nicer and more logical end of the spectrum. I’m not in a place to make decisions, so unfortunately can’t change the culture from within. The founder isn’t a bad guy, I just know he’s going to screw me in the end, so overworking for him doesn’t make sense for me. For me it sucked that I was lied to in the interview (if I had known that two of the senior members left, I would never join), but once you are roped in, it’s not that easy to get out. That said, I don’t think my experience is particularly unique — honestly I think finding a good company is more rare than working for a bad one, but when we are in good roles (like I was in previous jobs), we do assume we can always be in good situations. Pandemic didn’t help - worst time to be an employee looking for a change!

yowlingcat 6y ago

> Some people may come back and say not to join such companies but pick wiser, but the harsh reality is that most of these startups founders are narcissistic and would sell you out for a dollar. That may be the case but there is a world of difference between what you are describing and every hypergrowth Series B+ company with reputable top tier VCs I've worked at. Maybe part of the problem is the "non-tech semi startup" part -- tech startups, while still having founders who "would sell you out for a dollar" must nonetheless participate in a labor market which is biased in their counterparty's favor. Why is this the case? The counterparty can work at a FAANG/newly public company, a quant fund/finance, and so there are bidders from multiple industries who want the top tier talent. Are you a technical employee or a non-technical employee? If the latter, have you considered making a transition towards working in a tech startup for better mobility, if you want to work in startups at all? I have run into all kinds of shenanigans in my tech startup employee days, but the general quality of life at the good companies was the best I've ever had.

abhinav22 6y ago
Agree that the labor market affects it a lot. Since I’m not in a “core” field for the company, I end up doing a lot more and getting a lot less than others who are more core to the company due to their positions (even if work wise, I basically do half their jobs already). Reputable VC backing would definitely be a positive signal for a better working environment — the big backers know that time and some amount of money (not wasting it) is required to build a startup up. They are also in a position to coach owners to treat their employees as assets not an expense

benjaminsuch 6y ago

I'm actually in the same spot but for a tech startup. But the founders are very nice and have a lot of good will. I'm working 12-14 hours every day because I want and I have fun doing the work. But even though I'm getting a lot less salary than I could have, I decided to keep grinding because I see way more opportunities and chances than my "personal loss". Imo, everyone working his ass off in a startup should make sure it's worth. And that, for me, means looking for opportunities regardless how shitty the founders may be. Being an early employee gives you a shit ton of responsibilities, but instead of seeing them as a burden, take them to shine and negotiate your future.

ffdjjjffjj 6y ago
This post reminds me of a younger me. The experience I got working hours like this at jobs like this was not as good as I thought. It was shallow and rushed, every cuttable corner was cut. And ultimately, it wasn’t worth it. You may not care about money now, but you will in 5 years when your friends are buying houses and your $5m ticket never got punched. Just my advice feel free to ignore. I probably would have!
- alexpetralia 6y ago
  It is also very emblematic of a younger me. I worked because I couldn't for the life of me contrive anything better to do.
- peter422 6y ago
  And the double penalty is that if your resume showed 2 years at a large, prestigious company, it will always count more than 2 years where you did a Herculean job at a small startup. But everybody should choose the path they want.
- abhinav22 6y ago
  Yep, same here. I gave away my 20s for great experience but not as much pay I think I should have gotten and now I’m not as comfortable as I would like myself as a mid 30s worker. There are always good and bad cases of course - I’m hopeful that the parent of your post is a good case (we should always be optimistic!), so it’s not to bring him down but rather just share other experiences.

sokoloff 6y ago

The pandemic has changed job searching, but in some ways for the better. Your former co-workers are just as likely to hire you as before. Many companies are announcing they’re remote-friendly or remote-first, and some of them have no idea what to do next. Imagine the pandemic has 1-2 more years to run. Don’t let that delay lull you into forfeiting two more years of your short (work and non-work) life.

abhinav22 6y ago
Yep. My ex boss is starting up an office here, hopefully her company will allow her to expand and hire me. For me, I’m a bit stuck in a niche field in a niche region (don’t want to disclose too much in the rare case my boss reads), so it’s quite difficult to move around. Also as I’m no longer young, my salary is a bit higher than for young 20s so it’s not that easy to move into other adjacent fields. But the expenses are higher - with a partner and bills to support. Now I know what it feels like to get older!

research_pie 6y ago

Man, sorry for that it seems that you got into a toxic startup culture. My startup was a bit like this 10 months ago, the other founders were all about making sacrifices and working 999h per week. However, nothing was working out properly. I've made some drastic change to our culture to be more empathic, transparent and based on trust. Since then its way more enjoyable for everyone and we are way more productive. Salary for our employee are still under market, but we increase them whenever we have the chance and the financing. We aim to get to 10% above market value so that everyone is confortable. Also we've cut the 80h per week bullshit. If someone is working that much he is most likely doing a crappy job and needs to prioritize his day properly. Here is a series of concept/book I've implemented that drove the change: - Objective and Key Result: the only work that matter is those explicitly tied to the objective. There is a good book on that. - The book Drive, it helped us understand how to create a motivating environment for our employee. - The book Traction, it gave us a set of tools to make the business run smoother. - Effective DevOps: It gave us a blueprint on how to structure our technology developement and team interaction. - Peopleware: This was one of the best book that we've implemented. We moved to a remote-first company based on trust, we don't track time anymore and we don't care when people work. All that matter is objective attainement and the wellbeing of our employee. Let me known if you want to chat about this.

solatic 6y ago
Be careful with the combination of a ruthless pursuit of objectives, no explicit time tracking, and Peopleware-flavored advice not to interrupt people who are in maker-mode (which can easily be misunderstood as advice not to communicate). You have the makings of a culture where people bust their balls for 18 hours a day in order to meet their objectives and don't tell you that they're spending 18 hours and not 8 hours, because they don't want to rock the boat. Yes, meeting objectives matter. But setting the right objectives is a conversation between the business's wish list and the constraints of the resources that the business actually has. Trust is a two-way street; too many managers talk about trusting their workers but they don't talk about what they do to earn their workers' trust.
abhinav22 6y ago
That sounds like a great set of initiatives. But there is part selection bias for those posting on HN, they are probably on the nicer and more logical end of the spectrum. I’m not in a place to make decisions, so unfortunately can’t change the culture from within. The founder isn’t a bad guy, I just know he’s going to screw me in the end, so overworking for him doesn’t make sense for me. For me it sucked that I was lied to in the interview (if I had known that two of the senior members left, I would never join), but once you are roped in, it’s not that easy to get out. That said, I don’t think my experience is particularly unique — honestly I think finding a good company is more rare than working for a bad one, but when we are in good roles (like I was in previous jobs), we do assume we can always be in good situations. Pandemic didn’t help - worst time to be an employee looking for a change!