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That's a very absolutist view of risk. A founder may only be investing an amount in the venture that does not affect their own quality of life. They could have

That's a very absolutist view of risk. A founder may only be investing an amount in the venture that does not affect their own quality of life. They could have other wealth or means, and losing the entire investment would not be catastrophic. They might have a personal runway of several years before they have to give up and get a day job. Meanwhile, the early employee at a startup is far from without risk themselves. They are almost certainly not well paid (until the last decade of multi-Billion-dollar Unicorns, startups were NEVER known to pay well). They are also likely not making meaningful savings or even eating into them in the hope of hitting it big. They are almost certainly sacrificing a substantial part of their personal life just as the founder is, risking personal relationships and health.

jlokier 6y ago
> or even eating into them I can confirm :/ Worked at a startup as an employee, made a significant financial loss, living on savings and eventually credit, because cost of living was higher than income. Eventually had to stop. This happened gradually as I just couldn't keep up the work. Employer was annoyed with me for not doing more work. I kept telling them I had to do other work because their pay didn't cover my essential bills. They kept telling me if only I would finish X, Y and Z we'd have more money coming in. I took a risky bet and lost - as an employee. I don't resent it, they really couldn't pay more. But it was definitely a gamble. That financial cost still has lingering effects years later. Don't assume employee #1 or #2 is not taking on a risk. I'd still like to work at a startup! But I'll automatically turn down offers with low pay now, as well as offers of "no pay at the moment until we get investment" which I had some of this summer.
- juskrey 6y ago
  You think those people would have honored you if things have gone much better? I doubt. Typical toxic client. Nothing to do with business risk
  - jlokier 6y ago
    I've had toxic clients. This was not a toxic client. I knew exactly how much was in the business bank account. There were no secrets about the state of the business. I knew how it had arrived at the state it did as well, and its development and investment history. The developer I was replacing had just died, before the product was ready. He was a good friend. I could either take it on and try to make it work or not. They weren't underpaying due to failure to value me. They were underpaying because we mutually agreed the project was worth it, and there was the pot of money that there was. So I took on that risk on full knowledge as (replacement) employee #1. Yes, that's a business risk.
- neffy 6y ago
  The fact that they can't afford you is quite often a market signal about their business/product/idea in and of itself.

jlokier 6y ago

> or even eating into them I can confirm :/ Worked at a startup as an employee, made a significant financial loss, living on savings and eventually credit, because cost of living was higher than income. Eventually had to stop. This happened gradually as I just couldn't keep up the work. Employer was annoyed with me for not doing more work. I kept telling them I had to do other work because their pay didn't cover my essential bills. They kept telling me if only I would finish X, Y and Z we'd have more money coming in. I took a risky bet and lost - as an employee. I don't resent it, they really couldn't pay more. But it was definitely a gamble. That financial cost still has lingering effects years later. Don't assume employee #1 or #2 is not taking on a risk. I'd still like to work at a startup! But I'll automatically turn down offers with low pay now, as well as offers of "no pay at the moment until we get investment" which I had some of this summer.

juskrey 6y ago
You think those people would have honored you if things have gone much better? I doubt. Typical toxic client. Nothing to do with business risk
- jlokier 6y ago
  I've had toxic clients. This was not a toxic client. I knew exactly how much was in the business bank account. There were no secrets about the state of the business. I knew how it had arrived at the state it did as well, and its development and investment history. The developer I was replacing had just died, before the product was ready. He was a good friend. I could either take it on and try to make it work or not. They weren't underpaying due to failure to value me. They were underpaying because we mutually agreed the project was worth it, and there was the pot of money that there was. So I took on that risk on full knowledge as (replacement) employee #1. Yes, that's a business risk.
neffy 6y ago
The fact that they can't afford you is quite often a market signal about their business/product/idea in and of itself.