5 ms·

> unit tests are evidence that the whole project is meant for copyright infringement Minor quibble, it's not so much infringement (Wouldn't that require redist

by Reelin 6y ago

> unit tests are evidence that the whole project is meant for copyright infringement Minor quibble, it's not so much infringement (Wouldn't that require redistribution? Or that the original upload itself be a violation?) as circumvention of a mechanism as described under DMCA section 1201. (But does _generally_ circumventing a mechanism that is only _sometimes_ used to protect copyright actually run afoul of this?)

ldarby 6y ago
> Or that the original upload itself be a violation? The original uploads are on the artists' channels and are monetised (i.e. when I accessed 2 out of 3 of them, an ad played, so I assume some of the cash the adverstisers paid Youtube somehow wound up at the relevant copyright owners).
feanaro 6y ago
People seem to continually be misinterpreting this as copyright infringement, and you are right that it isn't. The fact that you bypassed the viewing of ads changes nothing in this matter. Otherwise, if we would allow this interpretation, then the entirety of modern internet technology is potentially infringing. This is ludicrous. Nothing substantially different happens when you view the video in your web browser than when you download it using youtube-dl (mpv, the media player, even wraps youtube-dl so you can directly stream a youtube video). In both cases HTTP requests are made, followed by some processing of the data. Does that mean adblocking software is infringing too? I don't know, maybe the US has totally lost its mind and this kind of thing would fly there, but certainly not in Europe.
- ldarby 6y ago
  It is copyright infringement (via the argument that ytdl facilitates and encourages others to commit the infringement), which happens to bypass ads. The rights holders have effectively said "you can watch this for free as long as we get the ad revenue". Theoretically, if there was some way of preserving that ad revenue while committing that infringement, I would assume they wouldn't care about the infringement. They're just using the infringement as a tool to preserve the ad revenue. What you're worried about is the converse, if there is a way to avoid infringing on copywrite while bypassing ads (which there is, ad-blocking), then there's no infringement to use as a tool, then they're going to want to make ad-blocking illegal. It's not hard to predict that's coming, especially in Europe given Article 13 last year.
  - feanaro 6y ago
    I'm actually arguing that it is wrong to claim that a copy is even being made by the mere act of streaming (i.e. transferring the bytes of) a media file and hence you cannot violate copyright by merely downloading something. You only infringe once you distribute the content further. In fact, as far as I'm aware of, this is also how the situation plays out de facto in most (all?) European countries. > The rights holders have effectively said "you can watch this for free as long as we get the ad revenue". The key lies in the word "effectively" here. They may have said and even meant that, but I am unaware of a legal mechanism that would actually allow them to do this (in Europe). The only way I can think of accomplishing this would be to make the content available under a dedicated, bespoke licence, akin to how GPL works, and even then I'm unsure whether it would be enforceable. TOSes, generally, are not. > It's not hard to predict that's coming, especially in Europe given Article 13 last year. This is wrong. Article 13 regulates content hosts (in this case, Youtube), not end users. Hence, Article 13 has no bearing on ad-blocking software.
    - ldarby 6y ago
      > cannot violate copyright by merely downloading something. You only infringe once you distribute the content further. Wrong. Copying something, without distribution, is still violating copyright. It's just taken less seriously than distribution. It's the same difference between drug dealers and drug users. >> It's not hard to predict that's coming, especially in Europe given Article 13 last year. > This is wrong. Article 13 regulates content hosts (in this case, Youtube), not end users. Hence, Article 13 has no bearing on ad-blocking software. No, I did not say anything at all about Article 13. Please re-read what I said.
      - Reelin 6y ago
        > No, I did not say anything at all about Article 13. Please re-read what I said. What? You very clearly stated that the content of Article 13 makes it easy to predict that the EU will attempt to make ad blocking illegal in the foreseeable future. (Granted, the response to that didn't make much sense - the current law doesn't have to directly affect end users for us to make a reasonable prediction based on it that laws proposed in the future would attempt to do just that.) > Wrong. Copying something, without distribution, is still violating copyright. That really depends on the jurisdiction and context. For example, in the US, making backup copies of materials licensed in perpetuity (ex a movie on VHS) is (always, AFAIK) permitted. Another example is recording broadcast TV for the purpose of time shifting it (ie watching it later), which has been explicitly permitted by the courts here. Yet another example is ripping CDs for personal use, which falls under fair use in the US and is therefore not a violation.
ldarby 6y ago
> Wouldn't that require redistribution? (sorry meant to reply to this earlier) No, copyright infringement doesn't require redistribution. In the UK if I buy a physical CD and rip it to a PC, purely for personal listening, that's still infringement (there have been attempts to change the law but they failed: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/quashing-of-private-copying-exception https://www.gov.uk/government/news/quashing-of-private-copyi...)
- Reelin 6y ago
  I was unaware that copyright in the UK was so extreme. That's unfortunate. The topic at hand, however, is a DMCA action between two US entities (the RIAA and GitHub) and so is purely a matter of US law AFAIK. My understanding (possibly mistaken) was that the courts here had nearly always permitted making personal copies of otherwise legitimately obtained media. In fact, my understanding is that reversing this status quo was one of the primary motivations behind the DMCA; by disallowing circumvention of protection schemes, in many instances it effectively outlawed the tools needed to make otherwise permitted copies.
  - ldarby 6y ago
    > otherwise legitimately obtained media That's the issue. If you haven't legitimately obtained Taylor Swift's Shake it Off, you can't argue the copy you made with youtube-dl is a permitted personal copy, in the US or anywhere with copyright laws. If you did pay for it, then yes you can argue it's a permitted copy (just not in the UK).

by Reelin 6y ago

ldarby 6y ago

> Or that the original upload itself be a violation? The original uploads are on the artists' channels and are monetised (i.e. when I accessed 2 out of 3 of them, an ad played, so I assume some of the cash the adverstisers paid Youtube somehow wound up at the relevant copyright owners).

feanaro 6y ago

People seem to continually be misinterpreting this as copyright infringement, and you are right that it isn't. The fact that you bypassed the viewing of ads changes nothing in this matter. Otherwise, if we would allow this interpretation, then the entirety of modern internet technology is potentially infringing. This is ludicrous. Nothing substantially different happens when you view the video in your web browser than when you download it using youtube-dl (mpv, the media player, even wraps youtube-dl so you can directly stream a youtube video). In both cases HTTP requests are made, followed by some processing of the data. Does that mean adblocking software is infringing too? I don't know, maybe the US has totally lost its mind and this kind of thing would fly there, but certainly not in Europe.

ldarby 6y ago
It is copyright infringement (via the argument that ytdl facilitates and encourages others to commit the infringement), which happens to bypass ads. The rights holders have effectively said "you can watch this for free as long as we get the ad revenue". Theoretically, if there was some way of preserving that ad revenue while committing that infringement, I would assume they wouldn't care about the infringement. They're just using the infringement as a tool to preserve the ad revenue. What you're worried about is the converse, if there is a way to avoid infringing on copywrite while bypassing ads (which there is, ad-blocking), then there's no infringement to use as a tool, then they're going to want to make ad-blocking illegal. It's not hard to predict that's coming, especially in Europe given Article 13 last year.
- feanaro 6y ago
  I'm actually arguing that it is wrong to claim that a copy is even being made by the mere act of streaming (i.e. transferring the bytes of) a media file and hence you cannot violate copyright by merely downloading something. You only infringe once you distribute the content further. In fact, as far as I'm aware of, this is also how the situation plays out de facto in most (all?) European countries. > The rights holders have effectively said "you can watch this for free as long as we get the ad revenue". The key lies in the word "effectively" here. They may have said and even meant that, but I am unaware of a legal mechanism that would actually allow them to do this (in Europe). The only way I can think of accomplishing this would be to make the content available under a dedicated, bespoke licence, akin to how GPL works, and even then I'm unsure whether it would be enforceable. TOSes, generally, are not. > It's not hard to predict that's coming, especially in Europe given Article 13 last year. This is wrong. Article 13 regulates content hosts (in this case, Youtube), not end users. Hence, Article 13 has no bearing on ad-blocking software.
  - ldarby 6y ago
    > cannot violate copyright by merely downloading something. You only infringe once you distribute the content further. Wrong. Copying something, without distribution, is still violating copyright. It's just taken less seriously than distribution. It's the same difference between drug dealers and drug users. >> It's not hard to predict that's coming, especially in Europe given Article 13 last year. > This is wrong. Article 13 regulates content hosts (in this case, Youtube), not end users. Hence, Article 13 has no bearing on ad-blocking software. No, I did not say anything at all about Article 13. Please re-read what I said.
    - Reelin 6y ago
      > No, I did not say anything at all about Article 13. Please re-read what I said. What? You very clearly stated that the content of Article 13 makes it easy to predict that the EU will attempt to make ad blocking illegal in the foreseeable future. (Granted, the response to that didn't make much sense - the current law doesn't have to directly affect end users for us to make a reasonable prediction based on it that laws proposed in the future would attempt to do just that.) > Wrong. Copying something, without distribution, is still violating copyright. That really depends on the jurisdiction and context. For example, in the US, making backup copies of materials licensed in perpetuity (ex a movie on VHS) is (always, AFAIK) permitted. Another example is recording broadcast TV for the purpose of time shifting it (ie watching it later), which has been explicitly permitted by the courts here. Yet another example is ripping CDs for personal use, which falls under fair use in the US and is therefore not a violation.

ldarby 6y ago

> Wouldn't that require redistribution? (sorry meant to reply to this earlier) No, copyright infringement doesn't require redistribution. In the UK if I buy a physical CD and rip it to a PC, purely for personal listening, that's still infringement (there have been attempts to change the law but they failed: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/quashing-of-private-copying-exception https://www.gov.uk/government/news/quashing-of-private-copyi...)

Reelin 6y ago
I was unaware that copyright in the UK was so extreme. That's unfortunate. The topic at hand, however, is a DMCA action between two US entities (the RIAA and GitHub) and so is purely a matter of US law AFAIK. My understanding (possibly mistaken) was that the courts here had nearly always permitted making personal copies of otherwise legitimately obtained media. In fact, my understanding is that reversing this status quo was one of the primary motivations behind the DMCA; by disallowing circumvention of protection schemes, in many instances it effectively outlawed the tools needed to make otherwise permitted copies.
- ldarby 6y ago
  > otherwise legitimately obtained media That's the issue. If you haven't legitimately obtained Taylor Swift's Shake it Off, you can't argue the copy you made with youtube-dl is a permitted personal copy, in the US or anywhere with copyright laws. If you did pay for it, then yes you can argue it's a permitted copy (just not in the UK).