5 ms·

From a product perspective, I do think this is an important one in the longer term. VR and AR are going to be big, and Facebook is making a play to own the soci

From a product perspective, I do think this is an important one in the longer term. VR and AR are going to be big, and Facebook is making a play to own the social space and tie it to their hardware with Horizon. There's literally no one competing with their Quest platform, so they'll be in a market position to turn Horizon into the dominant social environment for a whole lot of VR users. Without cross-platform social systems like this, you end up in a world where your grandma has an Oculus headset and if you want to virtually visit them you need to be on a Quest as well. BigScreen is another example that I'm glad still exists. Facebook would like to either own them or crush them: https://twitter.com/DShankar/status/1295825811748999173 https://twitter.com/DShankar/status/1295825811748999173 > When I announced a beta version of @BigscreenVR in 2015/2016, Facebook reached out. They told me to join them, because they were going to build the same thing and crush us. > I have many stories like this. I can share a long list of VR devs who have been trampled by Facebook.

jms703 6y ago
Perhaps, but Mozilla need to pick their battle. They can’t keep splitting their resources on so many fronts.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  Maybe there's a way that Hubs can make money? "Virtual office service" seems like the obvious answer in this growing remote work situation (see also: Immersed VR), but with Facebook's lower level hardware access they may be poised to eat that space too.
  - entropicdrifter 6y ago
    Hardware-agnostic seems like a big selling point for Mozilla's service vs FB. Unless my company is going to go all-in and buy everyone a 'work headset' like how we have work laptops, they'll want it to be cross platform compatible so users have a choice.
  - Tossrock 6y ago
    Hubs already makes money, by offering turn-key self-hosted Hubs instances for corporations via AWS image.
  - hackerfromthefu 6y ago
    Health nightmare wearing a headset for hours and hours or a full workday.
- moron4hire 6y ago
  Just how many people do you think they have working in Hubs? Hell, before the layoff, they only had one person working on WebXR for desktop Firefox. Seems like being penny-wise, pound-foolish.
dandellion 6y ago
I own an Index and I love VR, but I have the feeling that if VR was going to be huge it would be a lot bigger than it is already. In my opinion it's more likely that in the future it will remain a niche, but never become really a hit in the general population. A bit like flight sticks or wheels are mostly for people who like to play simulators and have a small but very dedicated public. There's still some room for growth as better products come out for better prices, but I don't see everybody adopting it, it's too much of a hastle.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  The quest is really not a hassle. You put it on, trace a safe area out on the floor, and you're in another world within 30 seconds. I think their biggest challenge for growth is that you really have to experience it to get it. People understand what "new Xbox" is all about, it's the same as the last one except improved in easily quantifiable ways, and they'll go spend $500 on it. VR is still a new thing that people don't understand. But I think it'll get there.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    I've experienced VR with a good setup as few times and I'm meh to it. There's a bias where people who love something assume everyone will love it just as much if they only experienced it the right way.
  - dreamcompiler 6y ago
    The old Quest was amazing. The new one is cheaper and it shows. Plus it requires a non-anonymous FB login just to turn the thing on. No thanks.
    - wlesieutre 6y ago
      Most of what I hear about the new one is how incredible the pixel density is, but Facebook account I agree with you on. Just got a Horizon beta invite today but I'd presumably need to merge my Facebook/Oculus accounts to use it. Instead, I'm thinking about nuking my Facebook account (dating back to 2005) and having to create a fresh one for Oculus useage only when they force me to for the Quest 1 to keep working. I guess it's now or never, since once the account merge is required I'll have a bunch of real money purchases tied to my Facebook account and can't just up and delete it anymore.
mxuribe 6y ago
> Without cross-platform social systems like this... Perhaps I missed this in Mozilla's hub, spoke, and developer documentation but I'm not seeing how this would be cross-platform. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but maybe i missed this. Or, or, or...maybe I'm conflating cross-platform with federated...like this would be good concept if operated over established federation protocols like ActivityPub, though of course higher up the chain to incorporate the neat VR elements...? Don't get me wrong: if Mozilla's foray into this space can displace FB even a little, and empower users with more freedom, independence and decentralization, then I'm in favor!
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  It's cross platform in that it works in the browser with WebXR, so any VR device with a web browser can use it. For the time being, when Oculus launches Horizon, maybe anyone with an Facebook account can still download it and run in on their Valve Index using Revive, but if competing standalone android-based headsets come out I think workarounds like that become less likely. If you want Horizon, you buy a Quest. But any of those other headsets could use Hubs regardless of where their friend-group is. It's the iMessage group text problem but on a system that's probably going to be a lot less easy to just substitute with WhatsApp. It remains to be seen if we'll have a functionally equal option that isn't platform locked. Or maybe they'll just port it everywhere, own the main social space, and squeeze all the advertizing tracking they can out of that. Either way, I don't love it.
  - mxuribe 6y ago
    Thanks very much; this clarity helped!
joubert 6y ago
> VR and AR are going to be big Why do you think so? I don't disagree, but I don't feel that confident about it either.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  I think the social side of it will be a big part of this. It lets you get together with someone who's hours away from you and have experiences together in a shared space. The avatars actually convey a pretty convincing sense of "this is another person next to me that I'm talking to" in a way that video calls don't. You trade facial expressions for a sense of physical proximity. Or comparing to normal first person video games, you can see your friends' character as a fully detailed model, you know they're controlling what direction it turns, when it moves, whether it jumps. But the character fundamentally isn't them, it's a character that they're controlling. And that's the weird thing about people's avatars in VR, it might be a low resolution floating torso and hands, but being in VR where the physical motion of their head and hands is directly translated to avatar movements makes it feel like the avatar is a low-detailed person instead of a high-detailed puppet. The games and other experiences are obviously part of the selling point too. Being able to deflect blaster bolts with a lightsaber, throw droids off the top of a building with the force, shoot hordes of zombies, fly a jetpack, become a wizard, solve puzzles by working together with giant and tiny copies of yourself, have your friends talk you through defusing a bomb, and so many other things that we haven't thought of yet. Smaller market, but I can see a lot of promise for virtual training simulations as well. Less sophisticated than flight simulator cockpits for pilots, but dramatically more accessible.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  Alternate video answer for Star Wars fans, which has to be a sizeable market: https://streamable.com/nxr445 https://streamable.com/nxr445 ILMxLAB has another project in the works, I think in the setting from the Galaxy's Edge stuff at Disney's parks, which I'm not personally familiar with. But I'll get to try the VR experience, since my headset is a lot more convenient than a trip to Florida or California.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
throw_m239339 6y ago
> VR and AR are going to be big, Yes, in 20 years, let's see if Mozilla survives long enough...
- smegger001 6y ago
  that's my take once the patent expire then we will get decent mass market adoption for average consummers. E-ink is in the same boat to many patent held by people unwilling to license them for a reasonable price, in 15-20 years most will expire and we will get e-ink everywhere
tfsh 6y ago
I don't think Mozilla are playing the long game here, VR in it's current form is not going to get "big". Headsets and three dimensional experiences on 2D planes is not virtual reality, as such I don't think innovation here is well placed. There's no point competing with Oculus, I hate how tied in the FB ecosystem is with Oculus, but Mozilla in it's current form isn't suited to exploring novel ideas to compete with Oculus. As an engineers passion project, I'm all for it but this will inevitably get dropped.
- cpeterso 6y ago
  That's why Mozilla Hubs supports multiple clients like VR headsets and browsers on desktop and mobile.

jms703 6y ago

Perhaps, but Mozilla need to pick their battle. They can’t keep splitting their resources on so many fronts.

wlesieutre 6y ago
Maybe there's a way that Hubs can make money? "Virtual office service" seems like the obvious answer in this growing remote work situation (see also: Immersed VR), but with Facebook's lower level hardware access they may be poised to eat that space too.
- entropicdrifter 6y ago
  Hardware-agnostic seems like a big selling point for Mozilla's service vs FB. Unless my company is going to go all-in and buy everyone a 'work headset' like how we have work laptops, they'll want it to be cross platform compatible so users have a choice.
- Tossrock 6y ago
  Hubs already makes money, by offering turn-key self-hosted Hubs instances for corporations via AWS image.
- hackerfromthefu 6y ago
  Health nightmare wearing a headset for hours and hours or a full workday.
moron4hire 6y ago
Just how many people do you think they have working in Hubs? Hell, before the layoff, they only had one person working on WebXR for desktop Firefox. Seems like being penny-wise, pound-foolish.

dandellion 6y ago

I own an Index and I love VR, but I have the feeling that if VR was going to be huge it would be a lot bigger than it is already. In my opinion it's more likely that in the future it will remain a niche, but never become really a hit in the general population. A bit like flight sticks or wheels are mostly for people who like to play simulators and have a small but very dedicated public. There's still some room for growth as better products come out for better prices, but I don't see everybody adopting it, it's too much of a hastle.

wlesieutre 6y ago
The quest is really not a hassle. You put it on, trace a safe area out on the floor, and you're in another world within 30 seconds. I think their biggest challenge for growth is that you really have to experience it to get it. People understand what "new Xbox" is all about, it's the same as the last one except improved in easily quantifiable ways, and they'll go spend $500 on it. VR is still a new thing that people don't understand. But I think it'll get there.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  I've experienced VR with a good setup as few times and I'm meh to it. There's a bias where people who love something assume everyone will love it just as much if they only experienced it the right way.
- dreamcompiler 6y ago
  The old Quest was amazing. The new one is cheaper and it shows. Plus it requires a non-anonymous FB login just to turn the thing on. No thanks.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    Most of what I hear about the new one is how incredible the pixel density is, but Facebook account I agree with you on. Just got a Horizon beta invite today but I'd presumably need to merge my Facebook/Oculus accounts to use it. Instead, I'm thinking about nuking my Facebook account (dating back to 2005) and having to create a fresh one for Oculus useage only when they force me to for the Quest 1 to keep working. I guess it's now or never, since once the account merge is required I'll have a bunch of real money purchases tied to my Facebook account and can't just up and delete it anymore.

mxuribe 6y ago

> Without cross-platform social systems like this... Perhaps I missed this in Mozilla's hub, spoke, and developer documentation but I'm not seeing how this would be cross-platform. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but maybe i missed this. Or, or, or...maybe I'm conflating cross-platform with federated...like this would be good concept if operated over established federation protocols like ActivityPub, though of course higher up the chain to incorporate the neat VR elements...? Don't get me wrong: if Mozilla's foray into this space can displace FB even a little, and empower users with more freedom, independence and decentralization, then I'm in favor!

wlesieutre 6y ago
It's cross platform in that it works in the browser with WebXR, so any VR device with a web browser can use it. For the time being, when Oculus launches Horizon, maybe anyone with an Facebook account can still download it and run in on their Valve Index using Revive, but if competing standalone android-based headsets come out I think workarounds like that become less likely. If you want Horizon, you buy a Quest. But any of those other headsets could use Hubs regardless of where their friend-group is. It's the iMessage group text problem but on a system that's probably going to be a lot less easy to just substitute with WhatsApp. It remains to be seen if we'll have a functionally equal option that isn't platform locked. Or maybe they'll just port it everywhere, own the main social space, and squeeze all the advertizing tracking they can out of that. Either way, I don't love it.
- mxuribe 6y ago
  Thanks very much; this clarity helped!

joubert 6y ago

> VR and AR are going to be big Why do you think so? I don't disagree, but I don't feel that confident about it either.

wlesieutre 6y ago
I think the social side of it will be a big part of this. It lets you get together with someone who's hours away from you and have experiences together in a shared space. The avatars actually convey a pretty convincing sense of "this is another person next to me that I'm talking to" in a way that video calls don't. You trade facial expressions for a sense of physical proximity. Or comparing to normal first person video games, you can see your friends' character as a fully detailed model, you know they're controlling what direction it turns, when it moves, whether it jumps. But the character fundamentally isn't them, it's a character that they're controlling. And that's the weird thing about people's avatars in VR, it might be a low resolution floating torso and hands, but being in VR where the physical motion of their head and hands is directly translated to avatar movements makes it feel like the avatar is a low-detailed person instead of a high-detailed puppet. The games and other experiences are obviously part of the selling point too. Being able to deflect blaster bolts with a lightsaber, throw droids off the top of a building with the force, shoot hordes of zombies, fly a jetpack, become a wizard, solve puzzles by working together with giant and tiny copies of yourself, have your friends talk you through defusing a bomb, and so many other things that we haven't thought of yet. Smaller market, but I can see a lot of promise for virtual training simulations as well. Less sophisticated than flight simulator cockpits for pilots, but dramatically more accessible.
wlesieutre 6y ago
Alternate video answer for Star Wars fans, which has to be a sizeable market: https://streamable.com/nxr445 https://streamable.com/nxr445 ILMxLAB has another project in the works, I think in the setting from the Galaxy's Edge stuff at Disney's parks, which I'm not personally familiar with. But I'll get to try the VR experience, since my headset is a lot more convenient than a trip to Florida or California.
- wlesieutre 6y ago

throw_m239339 6y ago

> VR and AR are going to be big, Yes, in 20 years, let's see if Mozilla survives long enough...

smegger001 6y ago
that's my take once the patent expire then we will get decent mass market adoption for average consummers. E-ink is in the same boat to many patent held by people unwilling to license them for a reasonable price, in 15-20 years most will expire and we will get e-ink everywhere

tfsh 6y ago

I don't think Mozilla are playing the long game here, VR in it's current form is not going to get "big". Headsets and three dimensional experiences on 2D planes is not virtual reality, as such I don't think innovation here is well placed. There's no point competing with Oculus, I hate how tied in the FB ecosystem is with Oculus, but Mozilla in it's current form isn't suited to exploring novel ideas to compete with Oculus. As an engineers passion project, I'm all for it but this will inevitably get dropped.

cpeterso 6y ago
That's why Mozilla Hubs supports multiple clients like VR headsets and browsers on desktop and mobile.