5 ms·

The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. This move will serve to push these movements underground to Tor or o

by 0xy 6y ago

The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. This move will serve to push these movements underground to Tor or other uncensorable networks where they're even harder to monitor. It also sends a message to them that they're on to something (because if the QAnon conspiracy was real, the "deep state" would indeed try to snuff it out). I feel like this is such a bad precedent and will not end well. It will embolden the crazies. It's also not clear where this is supposed to end? Flat earthers? 9/11 truthers? Who's next?

dragontamer 6y ago
> The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. I've been on the internet for decades. I fully disagree with this. EDIT: Mass bannings, aka an "Exodus Event", was the solution to almost all major conspiracies I've witnessed. 1. When GameFAQs LUEsers gained conspiracy theories against the website and other reckless behavior, to the point of harming the website, the solution was to cut off LUE and prevent the public from viewing that message board. 2. I never visited SomethingAwful, but clearly the toxic subset of that community was banned and eventually moved to 4chan. 3. 4Chan's prominence in the late 00s / early 10s was clearly toxic and always was. 4chan was just focused on hitting "safe" targets, such as harassing Scientology / Scientologists. As soon as 4chan's toxic behavior was unleashed to more mainstream ideas, it was clear that the toxicity had to be stopped, and 4chan moderators stepped up their game. 4. 8Chan was created in response to the Gamergate conspiracies, as was some legitimate sites like Resetera (though they took the less conspiracy-minded side). ---------- For the most part, the bannings on 4Chan worked. We don't see Gamergaters pushing their silly conspiracy theories today, or other vile attacks on people. Furthermore, the doxing / swatting mostly stopped on that subject. > This move will serve to push these movements underground to Tor or other uncensorable networks where they're even harder to monitor. Yes, that's called an exodus. But as various websites gain prominence, they discover again-and-again that with prominence comes responsibility. When you have a group of doxers and swatters visiting your website, you start to punish that subgroup. That's just what must happen. Yeah, its a temporary fix (doxers / swatters will move elsewhere), but at a minimum, it sends the message that such behavior won't be tolerated. > It also sends a message to them that they're on to something (because if the QAnon conspiracy was real, the "deep state" would indeed try to snuff it out). Tell me: when a child is misbehaving and thinks "Adults are out to get me", do you go more lenient on them? EDIT: Adults are just like children: you have to punish bad behavior and reward good behavior. That's just the basis of building a modern society.
- 0xy 6y ago
  There's 9 hits for the hard-R N-word on 4chan's /pol/ board right now. >We don't see Gamergaters pushing their silly conspiracy theories today According to a 4chan archive site, there have been 4,845 mentions of "gamergate" this year alone. So that's absolutely false.
  - rangibaby 6y ago
    Only 9 basically proves OPs point. I haven’t been near 4chan for over a decade but it was more like 9 times per post back in the day(a slight exaggeration)
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    > According to a 4chan archive site, there have been 4,845 mentions of "gamergate" this year alone. So that's absolutely false. At the height of the Gamergate conspiracy, there were constant Doxxing and Swatting of game journalists. That behavior (knock on wood) seems to have stopped. MOOT publicly condemning the practice made a huge difference. It set lines in the sand, and people do trust their leaders. (And yes, 4chan's leader at the time was MOOT).
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      *moot
- 3np 6y ago
  There's a very significant difference between website operators moderating content and banning users, versus coercing ISPs to block access to those sites or revoking ownership of IP numbers or DNS names.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    The issue being raised is that the 8chan IPs here are owned by nobody. > Both the Nevada-based web hosting company owned by 8chan’s current figurehead and the California firm that provides its sole connection to the Internet are defunct businesses in the eyes of their respective state regulators. > In practical terms, what this means is that the legal contracts which granted these companies temporary control over large swaths of Internet address space are now null and void, and American Internet regulators would be well within their rights to cancel those contracts and reclaim the space.
sickcodebruh 6y ago
> The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. This is only true when people participating in the debate operate in good faith and are able and willing to genuinely consider other ideas. Conspiracy theories often have more to do with faith than facts, there are no ideas to debate, so giving them room to breath becomes an opportunity for believers to proselytize. Traditionally, this has been somewhere between funny and annoying, but this is different. > Flat earthers? 9/11 truthers? Who's next? Well that's the thing, as far as I know, the big tech companies clamping down on QAnon haven't gone after flat earthers or 9/11 truthers because those believers haven't been connected to multiple violent crimes. Flat Earth "thought leaders" aren't telling believers that elected officials are cult members who kill children, urging them to action. So to your statement, "It's also not clear where this is supposed to end?" I'd say that the response to QAnon is a demonstration of the end -- it is the destination reached when one starts with more benign conspiracy theories.
kevinmchugh 6y ago
The recent converts to qanon have been on instagram. Before that it was Twitter. Maybe people get on the dark web to keep following it, but it's going to be really hard for it to keep growing if it's not allowed on the open web.
Broken_Hippo 6y ago
The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. Folks have tried this - multiple times - with anti-vaxxers. And flat earthers. And other anti-science folks. Yet, it has spread. THe other party has to be willing to actually accept the facts: Unfortunately, the very nature of a conspiracy is that they don't accept the facts that others have. This move will serve to push these movements underground to Tor or other uncensorable networks where they're even harder to monitor. It also sends a message to them that they're on to something (because if the QAnon conspiracy was real, the "deep state" would indeed try to snuff it out). Good. You know what happens when the information isn't easy to access? They have less reach. It gets harder to radicalize and convince others. It gets harder to stumble across the content. It isn't like we can avoid them thinking they are onto something: Everything against them is a sign to that. It isn't like we really monitor them well enough to prevent all attacks, anyway. I feel like this is such a bad precedent and will not end well. It will embolden the crazies. It's also not clear where this is supposed to end? Flat earthers? 9/11 truthers? Who's next? Folks whose conspiracies harm others. Most flat earthers aren't going to cause harm to you unless you work in the right field. Some folks might just need watched from time to time. However, anti-vaxxers hurt others. Not only do they convince others not to vaccinate, but they put folks that can't be vaccinated or the immunocompromised at risk. In any case, it will end somewhere, like things always do.
tzs 6y ago
> The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. Have you actually tried that? I have. I spent quite a while when I was in law school on some Usenet groups where tax conspiracy theorists hung out, thoroughly refuting their arguments (it was a good way for me to practice legal research). The problem was that the people who were coming up with the totally false but believable to people who only have a layman's understanding of law claims were easily able to do so faster than I and the other people also doing this could refute them.
- dhimes 6y ago
  Yes, debate doesn't seem to work very well. The "persuaders" just pivot to another nonsense claim, and you waste a ton of time debunking it. It has to start with public culture. People should be a little embarrassed to be wrong; they should strive to be right. They should demand evidence. We're losing that. The rise of anti-intellectualism is allowing this fungus to grow and spread.
  - 0xy 6y ago
    Are you proposing we censor and ban discussion of flat earth theories?
- dooglius 6y ago
  You seem to be implying it didn't work, but how do you know? Sure, the other person didn't go "I admit defeat", but the ideas can sit and percolate. Also, your messages may have had an effect on lurkers.
  - TigeriusKirk 6y ago
    Great point. People saying "You know what, I was wrong" is incredibly rare in public internet forums. Nearly non-existent in a lot of places. But it doesn't mean that they didn't shift their beliefs. And if nothing else, they may not spread it again. You'll just likely never know.
vkou 6y ago
In all the time I have spent on the internet, I have never seen facts or logic convince someone who believed in truly beyond-the-pale, completely-outrageous, not-even-a-matter-of-opinion bullshit. You can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. That's not how human brains work - and Homo Rationalus only exists in economics textbooks.

by 0xy 6y ago

dragontamer 6y ago

> The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. I've been on the internet for decades. I fully disagree with this. EDIT: Mass bannings, aka an "Exodus Event", was the solution to almost all major conspiracies I've witnessed. 1. When GameFAQs LUEsers gained conspiracy theories against the website and other reckless behavior, to the point of harming the website, the solution was to cut off LUE and prevent the public from viewing that message board. 2. I never visited SomethingAwful, but clearly the toxic subset of that community was banned and eventually moved to 4chan. 3. 4Chan's prominence in the late 00s / early 10s was clearly toxic and always was. 4chan was just focused on hitting "safe" targets, such as harassing Scientology / Scientologists. As soon as 4chan's toxic behavior was unleashed to more mainstream ideas, it was clear that the toxicity had to be stopped, and 4chan moderators stepped up their game. 4. 8Chan was created in response to the Gamergate conspiracies, as was some legitimate sites like Resetera (though they took the less conspiracy-minded side). ---------- For the most part, the bannings on 4Chan worked. We don't see Gamergaters pushing their silly conspiracy theories today, or other vile attacks on people. Furthermore, the doxing / swatting mostly stopped on that subject. > This move will serve to push these movements underground to Tor or other uncensorable networks where they're even harder to monitor. Yes, that's called an exodus. But as various websites gain prominence, they discover again-and-again that with prominence comes responsibility. When you have a group of doxers and swatters visiting your website, you start to punish that subgroup. That's just what must happen. Yeah, its a temporary fix (doxers / swatters will move elsewhere), but at a minimum, it sends the message that such behavior won't be tolerated. > It also sends a message to them that they're on to something (because if the QAnon conspiracy was real, the "deep state" would indeed try to snuff it out). Tell me: when a child is misbehaving and thinks "Adults are out to get me", do you go more lenient on them? EDIT: Adults are just like children: you have to punish bad behavior and reward good behavior. That's just the basis of building a modern society.

0xy 6y ago
There's 9 hits for the hard-R N-word on 4chan's /pol/ board right now. >We don't see Gamergaters pushing their silly conspiracy theories today According to a 4chan archive site, there have been 4,845 mentions of "gamergate" this year alone. So that's absolutely false.
- rangibaby 6y ago
  Only 9 basically proves OPs point. I haven’t been near 4chan for over a decade but it was more like 9 times per post back in the day(a slight exaggeration)
- dragontamer 6y ago
  > According to a 4chan archive site, there have been 4,845 mentions of "gamergate" this year alone. So that's absolutely false. At the height of the Gamergate conspiracy, there were constant Doxxing and Swatting of game journalists. That behavior (knock on wood) seems to have stopped. MOOT publicly condemning the practice made a huge difference. It set lines in the sand, and people do trust their leaders. (And yes, 4chan's leader at the time was MOOT).
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    *moot
3np 6y ago
There's a very significant difference between website operators moderating content and banning users, versus coercing ISPs to block access to those sites or revoking ownership of IP numbers or DNS names.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  The issue being raised is that the 8chan IPs here are owned by nobody. > Both the Nevada-based web hosting company owned by 8chan’s current figurehead and the California firm that provides its sole connection to the Internet are defunct businesses in the eyes of their respective state regulators. > In practical terms, what this means is that the legal contracts which granted these companies temporary control over large swaths of Internet address space are now null and void, and American Internet regulators would be well within their rights to cancel those contracts and reclaim the space.

sickcodebruh 6y ago

> The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. This is only true when people participating in the debate operate in good faith and are able and willing to genuinely consider other ideas. Conspiracy theories often have more to do with faith than facts, there are no ideas to debate, so giving them room to breath becomes an opportunity for believers to proselytize. Traditionally, this has been somewhere between funny and annoying, but this is different. > Flat earthers? 9/11 truthers? Who's next? Well that's the thing, as far as I know, the big tech companies clamping down on QAnon haven't gone after flat earthers or 9/11 truthers because those believers haven't been connected to multiple violent crimes. Flat Earth "thought leaders" aren't telling believers that elected officials are cult members who kill children, urging them to action. So to your statement, "It's also not clear where this is supposed to end?" I'd say that the response to QAnon is a demonstration of the end -- it is the destination reached when one starts with more benign conspiracy theories.

kevinmchugh 6y ago

The recent converts to qanon have been on instagram. Before that it was Twitter. Maybe people get on the dark web to keep following it, but it's going to be really hard for it to keep growing if it's not allowed on the open web.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago

The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. Folks have tried this - multiple times - with anti-vaxxers. And flat earthers. And other anti-science folks. Yet, it has spread. THe other party has to be willing to actually accept the facts: Unfortunately, the very nature of a conspiracy is that they don't accept the facts that others have. This move will serve to push these movements underground to Tor or other uncensorable networks where they're even harder to monitor. It also sends a message to them that they're on to something (because if the QAnon conspiracy was real, the "deep state" would indeed try to snuff it out). Good. You know what happens when the information isn't easy to access? They have less reach. It gets harder to radicalize and convince others. It gets harder to stumble across the content. It isn't like we can avoid them thinking they are onto something: Everything against them is a sign to that. It isn't like we really monitor them well enough to prevent all attacks, anyway. I feel like this is such a bad precedent and will not end well. It will embolden the crazies. It's also not clear where this is supposed to end? Flat earthers? 9/11 truthers? Who's next? Folks whose conspiracies harm others. Most flat earthers aren't going to cause harm to you unless you work in the right field. Some folks might just need watched from time to time. However, anti-vaxxers hurt others. Not only do they convince others not to vaccinate, but they put folks that can't be vaccinated or the immunocompromised at risk. In any case, it will end somewhere, like things always do.

tzs 6y ago

> The best antidote for bad ideas and conspiracy theories is transparency and public debate. Have you actually tried that? I have. I spent quite a while when I was in law school on some Usenet groups where tax conspiracy theorists hung out, thoroughly refuting their arguments (it was a good way for me to practice legal research). The problem was that the people who were coming up with the totally false but believable to people who only have a layman's understanding of law claims were easily able to do so faster than I and the other people also doing this could refute them.

dhimes 6y ago
Yes, debate doesn't seem to work very well. The "persuaders" just pivot to another nonsense claim, and you waste a ton of time debunking it. It has to start with public culture. People should be a little embarrassed to be wrong; they should strive to be right. They should demand evidence. We're losing that. The rise of anti-intellectualism is allowing this fungus to grow and spread.
- 0xy 6y ago
  Are you proposing we censor and ban discussion of flat earth theories?
dooglius 6y ago
You seem to be implying it didn't work, but how do you know? Sure, the other person didn't go "I admit defeat", but the ideas can sit and percolate. Also, your messages may have had an effect on lurkers.
- TigeriusKirk 6y ago
  Great point. People saying "You know what, I was wrong" is incredibly rare in public internet forums. Nearly non-existent in a lot of places. But it doesn't mean that they didn't shift their beliefs. And if nothing else, they may not spread it again. You'll just likely never know.

vkou 6y ago

In all the time I have spent on the internet, I have never seen facts or logic convince someone who believed in truly beyond-the-pale, completely-outrageous, not-even-a-matter-of-opinion bullshit. You can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. That's not how human brains work - and Homo Rationalus only exists in economics textbooks.