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> You forgot one benefit of masks. They act as a persistent, physical reminder to socially distance. Forcing people to remind everyone around them to socially

> You forgot one benefit of masks. They act as a persistent, physical reminder to socially distance. Forcing people to remind everyone around them to socially isolate, even if they disagree with that, is not a benefit. > The presence of Covid is an infringement on my freedom of movement. Are you particularly at risk or just a coward? > I'm happy to try something that might work, if it may help me get that freedom back, particularly if there are no major downsides. You are willing to force everyone else to wear masks and socially isolate to get your own freedom back. No wonder you don't see any major downsides.

triceratops 6y ago
> even if they disagree with that, is not a benefit. The time for "disagree" is long past. Viruses and pandemics aren't a matter of opinion. Facts don't care about your feelings. I'm a coward. Got no problems admitting that. I also have elderly relatives who I don't want getting sick and potentially dying. The sooner this pandemic is gone, the better I'll feel. I actually want everyone to get their freedom of movement, freedom of religion (are churches open yet?), freedom to earn a living and pursue happiness back. I'm not just thinking of myself. Sorry if that calculus (freedom of movement + religion + others > freedom from masking) seems wrong to you - maybe we value different things.
- anoncake 6y ago
  Please tell me how "The benefits of social isolation outweigh the benefits" is not a matter of opinion. I also want the pandemic to end ASAP. Which is why I'm opposed to mandatory mask wearing and especially to social isolation. These measures actually prolong the pandemic by delaying infections.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > I also want the pandemic to end ASAP. Which is why I'm opposed to mandatory mask wearing and especially to social isolation. These measures actually prolong the pandemic by delaying infections. Yeah...I'm not interested in risking long-term lung and organ damage in the pursuit of an as-yet-unproven "herd immunity victory condition", just because some people don't want to wear a piece of cloth on their face. It's clear we won't find much common ground, probably best for us to stop discussing this further. Also, elderly folks will still be left in social isolation with your solution, so it's not like it's a real win.
    - anoncake 6y ago
      Long-term damage is fortunately a myth. There is no evidence for it -- people may need more than a few weeks to recover, but ultimately they do. Whereas herd immunity is inevitable. Either we reach it naturally or we wait for a working vaccine. If people couldn't develop immunity against Covid, developing a vaccine would be impossible. > Also, elderly folks will still be left in social isolation with your solution, so it's not like it's a real win. Only for a limited time, and only them. That is clearly better than forcing everyone to isolate themselves for months.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        > Long-term damage is fortunately a myth. people may need more than a few weeks to recover, but ultimately they do. Nope.[1] And I don't care if long-haulers are a small percentage. Explain to me why you or I should take the tiniest bit of risk of becoming a statistic, instead of wearing a mask. You talk as though even a few weeks of suffering is nothing, compared to the agony of wearing a mask in public. There's no heroism in contracting a disease. We're not fighting a war. There's no point being "brave". Getting corona isn't like falling on a grenade to save your buddies. > Whereas herd immunity is inevitable. Either we reach it naturally or we wait for a working vaccine. There are already documented cases of reinfection,[2] so everyone has to either contract corona or get the vaccine, in order to protect those vulnerable to reinfection. Waiting for a vaccine will cost far fewer lives. > That is clearly better than forcing everyone to isolate themselves for months. Or the alternative: wear a mask, socialize outdoors or in well-ventilated areas. Strictly isolate the truly vulnerable. 1. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02598-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02598-6 2. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02948-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02948-4
        anoncake 6y ago
        Despite being published in Nature, the two articles you cited aren't scientific papers. I've been looking and asking for evidence that long-term damage and reinfections occur except in rare cases for months. This isn't it. Maybe social isolation until we have a (necessarily rushed) vaccine (if we ever get one) and of which we then have to produce billions of doses does save a few lives. But that is not guaranteed and it's not worth the suffering till then. > Explain to me why you or I should take the tiniest bit of risk of becoming a statistic, instead of wearing a mask. Because live is inherently risky. If you truly wanted to avoid every tiny risk, you couldn't even leave your house. > You talk as though even a few weeks of suffering is nothing, compared to the agony of wearing a mask in public. A few weeks of suffering for some of the population is nothing compared to months of suffering for all of them. And please, stop pretending being forced to wear masks is the only measure we have to endure.

triceratops 6y ago

> even if they disagree with that, is not a benefit. The time for "disagree" is long past. Viruses and pandemics aren't a matter of opinion. Facts don't care about your feelings. I'm a coward. Got no problems admitting that. I also have elderly relatives who I don't want getting sick and potentially dying. The sooner this pandemic is gone, the better I'll feel. I actually want everyone to get their freedom of movement, freedom of religion (are churches open yet?), freedom to earn a living and pursue happiness back. I'm not just thinking of myself. Sorry if that calculus (freedom of movement + religion + others > freedom from masking) seems wrong to you - maybe we value different things.

anoncake 6y ago
Please tell me how "The benefits of social isolation outweigh the benefits" is not a matter of opinion. I also want the pandemic to end ASAP. Which is why I'm opposed to mandatory mask wearing and especially to social isolation. These measures actually prolong the pandemic by delaying infections.
- triceratops 6y ago
  > I also want the pandemic to end ASAP. Which is why I'm opposed to mandatory mask wearing and especially to social isolation. These measures actually prolong the pandemic by delaying infections. Yeah...I'm not interested in risking long-term lung and organ damage in the pursuit of an as-yet-unproven "herd immunity victory condition", just because some people don't want to wear a piece of cloth on their face. It's clear we won't find much common ground, probably best for us to stop discussing this further. Also, elderly folks will still be left in social isolation with your solution, so it's not like it's a real win.
  - anoncake 6y ago
    Long-term damage is fortunately a myth. There is no evidence for it -- people may need more than a few weeks to recover, but ultimately they do. Whereas herd immunity is inevitable. Either we reach it naturally or we wait for a working vaccine. If people couldn't develop immunity against Covid, developing a vaccine would be impossible. > Also, elderly folks will still be left in social isolation with your solution, so it's not like it's a real win. Only for a limited time, and only them. That is clearly better than forcing everyone to isolate themselves for months.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      > Long-term damage is fortunately a myth. people may need more than a few weeks to recover, but ultimately they do. Nope.[1] And I don't care if long-haulers are a small percentage. Explain to me why you or I should take the tiniest bit of risk of becoming a statistic, instead of wearing a mask. You talk as though even a few weeks of suffering is nothing, compared to the agony of wearing a mask in public. There's no heroism in contracting a disease. We're not fighting a war. There's no point being "brave". Getting corona isn't like falling on a grenade to save your buddies. > Whereas herd immunity is inevitable. Either we reach it naturally or we wait for a working vaccine. There are already documented cases of reinfection,[2] so everyone has to either contract corona or get the vaccine, in order to protect those vulnerable to reinfection. Waiting for a vaccine will cost far fewer lives. > That is clearly better than forcing everyone to isolate themselves for months. Or the alternative: wear a mask, socialize outdoors or in well-ventilated areas. Strictly isolate the truly vulnerable. 1. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02598-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02598-6 2. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02948-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02948-4
      - anoncake 6y ago
        Despite being published in Nature, the two articles you cited aren't scientific papers. I've been looking and asking for evidence that long-term damage and reinfections occur except in rare cases for months. This isn't it. Maybe social isolation until we have a (necessarily rushed) vaccine (if we ever get one) and of which we then have to produce billions of doses does save a few lives. But that is not guaranteed and it's not worth the suffering till then. > Explain to me why you or I should take the tiniest bit of risk of becoming a statistic, instead of wearing a mask. Because live is inherently risky. If you truly wanted to avoid every tiny risk, you couldn't even leave your house. > You talk as though even a few weeks of suffering is nothing, compared to the agony of wearing a mask in public. A few weeks of suffering for some of the population is nothing compared to months of suffering for all of them. And please, stop pretending being forced to wear masks is the only measure we have to endure.