7 ms·

As far as I can tell, it rates a 4 on Mohs scale, i.e. "one big lie" - the idea that the speed of light varies with the distance from the center of the galaxy.

Retric 6y ago
FTL alone is already at “one big lie” stage, it’s got plenty of other issues with established physics and arguably worse with consistency. Personally I would argue for rank 1, but I am somewhat of a curmudgeon about this stuff.
jerf 6y ago
It's not that the speed of light varies, it's that the "amount of computation" you can do varies. As you approach the center of the galaxy even the relatively efficient human brain starts to break down. The speed of light connection is that FTL requires so much computation that it breaks at a certain point relatively far out from the center. Other technologies have similar issues. However, if you read carefully, and consider some of the consequences, it becomes clear that this is not a natural rule of the universe, but something technological, created by presumably one of the first civilizations to become highly technological as a defense against what would otherwise be a fairly vicious universe with constant high-tech civilizations fighting each other with frightfully powerful weapons, and perhaps a hint of compassion towards the not-yet-high-tech civilizations. That's why it can be manipulated with certain keys, in ways that would not be possible (lots of FTL signalling) if the Zones were truly a fundamental rule of the universe. (Notice also how the super-high-tech civilizations don't understand how the Zones work or why they exist, which if there were purely natural seems unlikely.) The Powers tend to last 10 years probably because that's how long it takes to either be accepted by the highly advanced civilization(s) that live in the galactic cores, or how long it takes to work out how to move there despite the Zones being in the way, or both. This creates an entrance gate against things like the main threat of the novel getting into your high-tech civ. I don't deny I'm extrapolating a bit, but there's a lot of hints, especially if you add A Deepness in the Sky to the mix. Pham was probably sent from this central civ to fight A Fire Upon the Deep's main threat, if you read where he came from. The entire planet of A Deepness in the Sky is clearly from a super-high tech civ far beyond what Earth's depth could support, but it's from closer to the galaxy's core, not farther, which is why Pham went in to the galaxy's core after that story rather than out looking for more intelligent life. He in fact found it, or it found him, if you prefer. Once you see there's a probably-even-beyond-Transcend civilization living under the Zones of Thought it mostly comes together.
- arethuza 6y ago
  I thought it was fairly explicit that the Zones were artificial?
- CogentHedgehog 6y ago
  I agree with a lot of this -- although I hadn't put the story about the galactic core together in the same way. A lot of this isn't made clear though. Can you point to some of the evidence you used to arrive at the conclusion that the high-tech civ is centered in the core, or that they're gating civilizations entering it? I think you might have picked up on some things I missed. One correction: the Zones impact BOTH the speed of computation AND the laws of physics (whether FTL travel and communication are physically possible). They also make pretty explicit in Fire Upon the Deep that mechanical failure rates of certain complex systems (especially automation) increase rapidly as you approach the Slow Zone. And then within the Slow Zone they increase again as you approach the Unthinking Depths. It is made explicit -- as you note -- that the Zones of thought are controlled somehow by the Countermeasure (or some Control System it speaks to). It is also clear that this system do not like the Blight and actively opposes it. One other interpretation that struck me is that the Control System may have put in place the Zones of Thought simply because stars become so dense as one approaches the Galactic Core. Forcing the Transcend to the Galactic edges limits the rate at which any change can spread and allows for civilizations (and the System itself) to respond to threats such as the Blight.
  - jerf 6y ago
    "Can you point to some of the evidence you used to arrive at the conclusion that the high-tech civ is centered in the core, or that they're gating civilizations entering it?" A high-tech civilization in the core is IIRC spelled out in A Deepness in the Sky because the planet there comes from the core. On its own that means nothing, but combined with A Fire upon the Deep it means there's more down there than the Upper Beyond realizes. Gating civilizations entering it is a bit of my own interpolation. One alternative is that powers simply die out after 10 years because there is some reason they need to advance to the next level, but they're locked out by the Zones. "BOTH the speed of computation AND the laws of physics (whether FTL travel and communication are physically possible)" My read is that that is cause and effect, though, not two effects. The amount of computation you are allowed is limited; super high tech becomes impossible, then FTL, then our tech, then even any system that performs simple and meaningful mechanical computations. Even a car engine can be viewed as performing computations to stay running. This is a particularly sci-fi element. I don't think it's immediately obvious how to separate the universe into "meaningful" computation and the sort of computation a stationary rock is "performing" as its atoms jiggle around, such that one can distinguish at the level of the laws of physics themselves between a rock and a car engine or other simple mechanical device. Then again, I'm not a superintelligent civilization with nearly unbounded resources and deeper access to the laws of physics than I have. (Arguably, under the circumstances, it could simply be an enormous computation of its own, in which they aren't doing it via clever rewrites of the universe, but basically by executive fiat, or, to put it another way, the standard may literally be "I know it when I see it" for some sufficiently intelligent "judge", rather than any sort of physical law.)

Retric 6y ago

FTL alone is already at “one big lie” stage, it’s got plenty of other issues with established physics and arguably worse with consistency. Personally I would argue for rank 1, but I am somewhat of a curmudgeon about this stuff.

jerf 6y ago

It's not that the speed of light varies, it's that the "amount of computation" you can do varies. As you approach the center of the galaxy even the relatively efficient human brain starts to break down. The speed of light connection is that FTL requires so much computation that it breaks at a certain point relatively far out from the center. Other technologies have similar issues. However, if you read carefully, and consider some of the consequences, it becomes clear that this is not a natural rule of the universe, but something technological, created by presumably one of the first civilizations to become highly technological as a defense against what would otherwise be a fairly vicious universe with constant high-tech civilizations fighting each other with frightfully powerful weapons, and perhaps a hint of compassion towards the not-yet-high-tech civilizations. That's why it can be manipulated with certain keys, in ways that would not be possible (lots of FTL signalling) if the Zones were truly a fundamental rule of the universe. (Notice also how the super-high-tech civilizations don't understand how the Zones work or why they exist, which if there were purely natural seems unlikely.) The Powers tend to last 10 years probably because that's how long it takes to either be accepted by the highly advanced civilization(s) that live in the galactic cores, or how long it takes to work out how to move there despite the Zones being in the way, or both. This creates an entrance gate against things like the main threat of the novel getting into your high-tech civ. I don't deny I'm extrapolating a bit, but there's a lot of hints, especially if you add A Deepness in the Sky to the mix. Pham was probably sent from this central civ to fight A Fire Upon the Deep's main threat, if you read where he came from. The entire planet of A Deepness in the Sky is clearly from a super-high tech civ far beyond what Earth's depth could support, but it's from closer to the galaxy's core, not farther, which is why Pham went in to the galaxy's core after that story rather than out looking for more intelligent life. He in fact found it, or it found him, if you prefer. Once you see there's a probably-even-beyond-Transcend civilization living under the Zones of Thought it mostly comes together.

arethuza 6y ago
I thought it was fairly explicit that the Zones were artificial?
CogentHedgehog 6y ago
I agree with a lot of this -- although I hadn't put the story about the galactic core together in the same way. A lot of this isn't made clear though. Can you point to some of the evidence you used to arrive at the conclusion that the high-tech civ is centered in the core, or that they're gating civilizations entering it? I think you might have picked up on some things I missed. One correction: the Zones impact BOTH the speed of computation AND the laws of physics (whether FTL travel and communication are physically possible). They also make pretty explicit in Fire Upon the Deep that mechanical failure rates of certain complex systems (especially automation) increase rapidly as you approach the Slow Zone. And then within the Slow Zone they increase again as you approach the Unthinking Depths. It is made explicit -- as you note -- that the Zones of thought are controlled somehow by the Countermeasure (or some Control System it speaks to). It is also clear that this system do not like the Blight and actively opposes it. One other interpretation that struck me is that the Control System may have put in place the Zones of Thought simply because stars become so dense as one approaches the Galactic Core. Forcing the Transcend to the Galactic edges limits the rate at which any change can spread and allows for civilizations (and the System itself) to respond to threats such as the Blight.
- jerf 6y ago
  "Can you point to some of the evidence you used to arrive at the conclusion that the high-tech civ is centered in the core, or that they're gating civilizations entering it?" A high-tech civilization in the core is IIRC spelled out in A Deepness in the Sky because the planet there comes from the core. On its own that means nothing, but combined with A Fire upon the Deep it means there's more down there than the Upper Beyond realizes. Gating civilizations entering it is a bit of my own interpolation. One alternative is that powers simply die out after 10 years because there is some reason they need to advance to the next level, but they're locked out by the Zones. "BOTH the speed of computation AND the laws of physics (whether FTL travel and communication are physically possible)" My read is that that is cause and effect, though, not two effects. The amount of computation you are allowed is limited; super high tech becomes impossible, then FTL, then our tech, then even any system that performs simple and meaningful mechanical computations. Even a car engine can be viewed as performing computations to stay running. This is a particularly sci-fi element. I don't think it's immediately obvious how to separate the universe into "meaningful" computation and the sort of computation a stationary rock is "performing" as its atoms jiggle around, such that one can distinguish at the level of the laws of physics themselves between a rock and a car engine or other simple mechanical device. Then again, I'm not a superintelligent civilization with nearly unbounded resources and deeper access to the laws of physics than I have. (Arguably, under the circumstances, it could simply be an enormous computation of its own, in which they aren't doing it via clever rewrites of the universe, but basically by executive fiat, or, to put it another way, the standard may literally be "I know it when I see it" for some sufficiently intelligent "judge", rather than any sort of physical law.)