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The fact that this very well paid prestigious industry doesn't "attract" more women is a very clear sign of inequality.

by daleharvey 6y ago

treelovinhippie 6y ago
Where do I find these "well-paid" startup founders? Shit I've been broke for decades grinding away at this.
- daleharvey 6y ago
  At the point where people are trying to argue that the venture capital industry is working class to try and prove that sexism doesn't exist might be a time to reevaluate what you are arguing for and why.
  - ephextom 6y ago
    If you need to resort to such a response as "people are trying to argue that the venture capital industry is working class", which your parent commenter very clearly did not do, you're not arguing from a position of strength, nor signalling an interest in debating in good faith.
    - daleharvey 6y ago
      The parent comment (and the various other "but startup founders dont get paid!") clearly were arguing that the VC industry (and its startup founder participants) are not within a prestigious and well paid sector. Failed tech entrepreneurs get highly paid tech jobs, they also had the resources (savings, safety nets via family etc) to be able to take on the risk in the first place. Pointing out the gotcha that startup founders go without pay for a while is akin arguing that cleaner's have a more prestigious job than being the CEO of Oracle while he had a 1¢ salary, its ludicrous.
      - ephextom 6y ago
        You're responding to stereotypes not whole reality, and you're mistaking best case scenarios for average expected outcomes - i.e., "go without pay for a while" and "Failed tech entrepreneurs get highly paid tech jobs". Many walk away financially/mentally/physically ruined, without a well-paid job to fail into, and thus ending up substantially worse off than they would be if they'd just taken a regular job. If you have any data to demonstrate (a) that the risk-adjusted expected return of a VC-funded male startup founder is significantly better than the expected career outcome for the many women who do very well from highly paid jobs in large tech companies, and (b) this outcome is higher only because they were granted VC funding, then we'd have something to talk about. It's clearly simplistic to paint startup founder life as "prestigious", when in fact many founders are mocked if they fail and despised (and/or still mocked) if they succeed. And it's a non sequitur to invoke "savings, safety nets via family etc", when this has nothing to do with gender, as it is to assert out that "failed tech entrepreneurs get highly paid tech jobs", when it's clear that people who are eligible for highly paid tech jobs can get them just as easily without starting a VC-funded company first. That women generally prefer to take the more direct path just suggests that they make smarter life choices.
        daleharvey 6y ago
        You are responding to easily observed demographics with hypothetical anecdotes. The startup tech industry, that involves high salaries and the transfer of hundreds of million pounds is a prestigious one. The overlap between YC alumni and FAANG employees makes that abundantly obvious. If you would like to say otherwise could you provide more meaningful data than your repeated comments about how mean everyone is so mean to VC's and founders. In a very roundabout way you are right though, women are less likely start companies and raise capital because they are less likely to be in the privileged position of being able to take that risk - https://qz.com/455109/entrepreneurs-dont-have-a-special-gene-for-risk-they-come-from-families-with-money/ https://qz.com/455109/entrepreneurs-dont-have-a-special-gene... I am very used to "girls just dont like computers" on Hacker News, I do have to say "People are mean to founders and there is no money in tech + VC" is a new one. I think the interesting question would be why you and several other commentators are so keen to try and dismiss what is such an emperically obvious fact.
  - treelovinhippie 6y ago
    Nobody is saying the VC industry is working class at all. The article is referring to startup founders, not people working in the VC sector. Startups are hard and poorly compensated for the majority of people who attempt them.
Avalaxy 6y ago
It is not very well paid. Most people don't get rich of even completely fail. Starting a startup is a risky venture. Women are on average more risk-averse than men.
ephextom 6y ago
> "very well paid prestigious industry" The risk-adjusted expected return for being a startup founder doesn't seem high. Or rather, it's a bimodal distribution, with a tiny number of incredibly rich (and also widely despised) people at one end, and the vast majority at the other end, making effectively nothing. It's not surprising that fewer women would take those odds. That said, two of Australia's leading startup founders are women, one of whom IPO'd her company today. (Incidentally, she never raised VC.) This is a great thing that should be celebrated. I can accept that there are things about the startup/VC world that make it more hostile for women. But the skew of VC funding isn't the smoking gun.

The fact that this very well paid prestigious industry doesn't "attract" more women is a very clear sign of inequality.

treelovinhippie 6y ago

Where do I find these "well-paid" startup founders? Shit I've been broke for decades grinding away at this.

daleharvey 6y ago
At the point where people are trying to argue that the venture capital industry is working class to try and prove that sexism doesn't exist might be a time to reevaluate what you are arguing for and why.
- ephextom 6y ago
  If you need to resort to such a response as "people are trying to argue that the venture capital industry is working class", which your parent commenter very clearly did not do, you're not arguing from a position of strength, nor signalling an interest in debating in good faith.
  - daleharvey 6y ago
    The parent comment (and the various other "but startup founders dont get paid!") clearly were arguing that the VC industry (and its startup founder participants) are not within a prestigious and well paid sector. Failed tech entrepreneurs get highly paid tech jobs, they also had the resources (savings, safety nets via family etc) to be able to take on the risk in the first place. Pointing out the gotcha that startup founders go without pay for a while is akin arguing that cleaner's have a more prestigious job than being the CEO of Oracle while he had a 1¢ salary, its ludicrous.
    - ephextom 6y ago
      You're responding to stereotypes not whole reality, and you're mistaking best case scenarios for average expected outcomes - i.e., "go without pay for a while" and "Failed tech entrepreneurs get highly paid tech jobs". Many walk away financially/mentally/physically ruined, without a well-paid job to fail into, and thus ending up substantially worse off than they would be if they'd just taken a regular job. If you have any data to demonstrate (a) that the risk-adjusted expected return of a VC-funded male startup founder is significantly better than the expected career outcome for the many women who do very well from highly paid jobs in large tech companies, and (b) this outcome is higher only because they were granted VC funding, then we'd have something to talk about. It's clearly simplistic to paint startup founder life as "prestigious", when in fact many founders are mocked if they fail and despised (and/or still mocked) if they succeed. And it's a non sequitur to invoke "savings, safety nets via family etc", when this has nothing to do with gender, as it is to assert out that "failed tech entrepreneurs get highly paid tech jobs", when it's clear that people who are eligible for highly paid tech jobs can get them just as easily without starting a VC-funded company first. That women generally prefer to take the more direct path just suggests that they make smarter life choices.
      - daleharvey 6y ago
        You are responding to easily observed demographics with hypothetical anecdotes. The startup tech industry, that involves high salaries and the transfer of hundreds of million pounds is a prestigious one. The overlap between YC alumni and FAANG employees makes that abundantly obvious. If you would like to say otherwise could you provide more meaningful data than your repeated comments about how mean everyone is so mean to VC's and founders. In a very roundabout way you are right though, women are less likely start companies and raise capital because they are less likely to be in the privileged position of being able to take that risk - https://qz.com/455109/entrepreneurs-dont-have-a-special-gene-for-risk-they-come-from-families-with-money/ https://qz.com/455109/entrepreneurs-dont-have-a-special-gene... I am very used to "girls just dont like computers" on Hacker News, I do have to say "People are mean to founders and there is no money in tech + VC" is a new one. I think the interesting question would be why you and several other commentators are so keen to try and dismiss what is such an emperically obvious fact.
- treelovinhippie 6y ago
  Nobody is saying the VC industry is working class at all. The article is referring to startup founders, not people working in the VC sector. Startups are hard and poorly compensated for the majority of people who attempt them.

Avalaxy 6y ago

It is not very well paid. Most people don't get rich of even completely fail. Starting a startup is a risky venture. Women are on average more risk-averse than men.

ephextom 6y ago

> "very well paid prestigious industry" The risk-adjusted expected return for being a startup founder doesn't seem high. Or rather, it's a bimodal distribution, with a tiny number of incredibly rich (and also widely despised) people at one end, and the vast majority at the other end, making effectively nothing. It's not surprising that fewer women would take those odds. That said, two of Australia's leading startup founders are women, one of whom IPO'd her company today. (Incidentally, she never raised VC.) This is a great thing that should be celebrated. I can accept that there are things about the startup/VC world that make it more hostile for women. But the skew of VC funding isn't the smoking gun.