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Well, in sympathy with those governments, you have to ask what else can they possibly do? The response I heard directly from the head of PPARC (defunct UK rese

Well, in sympathy with those governments, you have to ask what else can they possibly do? The response I heard directly from the head of PPARC (defunct UK research body) 10 years ago was, "so, instead of having us train and produce capable researchers, even if they don't all get faculty positions, you would prefer we cut their numbers?" This was in response to the question, why aren't we funding more permanent positions in proportion to the number of students we're training. It's not an easy situation to solve. You end up having to trade off permanent positions against students. But in some countries, including a lot of EU countries, training students is a hidden way to prevent unemployment. And would you say that denying willing people a useful education just for less competition for faculty jobs is the ideal outcome? What would the best choice be? Not clear. When a pie isn't increasing, but the number of people is, things get uncomfortable.

goodcanadian 6y ago
"so, instead of having us train and produce capable researchers, even if they don't all get faculty positions, you would prefer we cut their numbers?" Instead of training and producing large numbers of capable but underemployed researchers, I would definitely spend more on permanently employed researchers. I am certainly not advocating one student per permanent position: some of those excess PhDs will go into important roles in industry, but most will not: https://theconversation.com/young-educated-and-underemployed-are-we-building-a-nation-of-phd-baristas-53104 https://theconversation.com/young-educated-and-underemployed... I might spend more effort on practical Masters degree level education which can fill roles where a PhD really isn't necessary.
CuriouslyC 6y ago
I'm ok with grad students not having a shot at an academic position, and not getting paid much, since it's an internship really. The problem is that postdocs also don't get paid much (last I checked the mandated maximum salary for postdocs in biosciences was ~45k/year), and they're being strung along with the hope of professorship. Even worse, a lot of professors will take as few grad students as they can get away with, and mostly use postdocs, since they're only about 50% more expensive, but they're much more productive from a research standpoint. Also, a lot of professors will string grad students along for a while towards the end, since that's when they're the most productive, but they're still cheap. We need to have fewer postdocs, and pay them more. We also need to make grad school follow a more regimented timeline, with raises over time, to protect the students' interests. There's a reason miserable grad students are such a meme, it's a terrible system.

goodcanadian 6y ago

"so, instead of having us train and produce capable researchers, even if they don't all get faculty positions, you would prefer we cut their numbers?" Instead of training and producing large numbers of capable but underemployed researchers, I would definitely spend more on permanently employed researchers. I am certainly not advocating one student per permanent position: some of those excess PhDs will go into important roles in industry, but most will not: https://theconversation.com/young-educated-and-underemployed-are-we-building-a-nation-of-phd-baristas-53104 https://theconversation.com/young-educated-and-underemployed... I might spend more effort on practical Masters degree level education which can fill roles where a PhD really isn't necessary.

CuriouslyC 6y ago

I'm ok with grad students not having a shot at an academic position, and not getting paid much, since it's an internship really. The problem is that postdocs also don't get paid much (last I checked the mandated maximum salary for postdocs in biosciences was ~45k/year), and they're being strung along with the hope of professorship. Even worse, a lot of professors will take as few grad students as they can get away with, and mostly use postdocs, since they're only about 50% more expensive, but they're much more productive from a research standpoint. Also, a lot of professors will string grad students along for a while towards the end, since that's when they're the most productive, but they're still cheap. We need to have fewer postdocs, and pay them more. We also need to make grad school follow a more regimented timeline, with raises over time, to protect the students' interests. There's a reason miserable grad students are such a meme, it's a terrible system.