5 ms·

> It's becoming kind of an Enterprise language It tried for decades to be one with Doctrine, Symonfy and co, trying to copy the worst of Java EE with every sin

> It's becoming kind of an Enterprise language It tried for decades to be one with Doctrine, Symonfy and co, trying to copy the worst of Java EE with every single possible design pattern implemented in these frameworks, XML configuration files and co... The problem is no generics, no private packages makes PHP OO a horrible mess compared to Java (or C#).

agumonkey 6y ago
It's a different culture. They go around the problems differently. Also the way the write programs seems simpler and leaner (composer in mind)... probably not ultra safe but a good enough ratio I guess.
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  > It's a different culture. They go around the problems differently. Also the way the write programs seems simpler and leaner (composer in mind)... probably not ultra safe but a good enough ratio I guess. No it's not a different culture, they(enterprise Java and enterprise PHP) both try to force some IoC container everywhere, except PHP is an interpreted language, it doesn't need a IoC container with with XML/YAML configuration files cause there is no long and costly compilation step to begin with...
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    That's unrelated, you can tell very rapidly how nicer a tool like composer is from most java things of this era; this is entirely cultural IMO.. you can use xml or yaml in fine or absurd ways.
- withinboredom 6y ago
  I’ve seen some self-balancing backed priority queues implementations, using some quirks of PHP, that are faster than the C implemented ones and faster than a “standard” implementation. Wall clock time, it’s still O(log n).
cannedslime 6y ago
I agree with you. Symfony and composer in general has just turned our code base into some kind of fugly java like monstrosity. When I used composer the first time I really enjoyed it, that project also used Silex a minimalistic symfony2, which I also really liked. But what I found out is that in general it is really terrible to be dependent on others, as Silex was dropped by Potencier and my project is left in limbo, sadly. Its very sad because its one of the coolest things I ever worked on, and its still in use today many years after. But I am worrying that some time in the feature, a vulnerability or problem with Silex comes up, the company will have to rewrite the project completely some day. I worked alot with Drupal7, absolutely hated it mostly because the hook system was hard to remember and performance of Drupal7 in general was absolutely terrible. Then I tried Drupal8 and though some changes are welcome, some stuff are just so god damn complicated, a task that would have been as simple as a few lines of code becomes pages of boiler plate, EventSubscribers and YML config files. PHP used to be a good choice because it was rapid application development on crack cocaine, developers were cheap and diverse in skill and background. I still think there is SOME use for PHP, I personally like it for shell scripts mostly because im so familiar with it. I used it alot the past 10 years for making stuff fast for friends and personal use I guess its also a decent beginner language for web development, though javascript would be higher on my list today because of the obvious front end relation.
- theluketowers 6y ago
  Have you tried October CMS? It really gets back to the basics and is awesome for rapid application development. Disclaimer, I'm the lead maintainer
- tpetry 6y ago
  I have been bitten too by the abandoning of silex and symfony becoming more and more like a complex java beast. The zend framework 1 was once good with a simple abstraction but they turned java like too. Nowadays i develop in laravel which is breeze to work with. A simple framework and you can choose whether to use it as simple as silex, full blown like symfony or somewhere between. I started using it like a silex with controller classes and migrated more and more to the symfony way, but still its really easy understandable for any new developer.
tannhaeuser 6y ago
That's what baffles me with PHP. Instead of building on PHP's unique capabilities, they try to become more like Java. When PHP was and is quite successful as server-side language for HTML templating, rooted in embedded PHP triggered from SGMLish processing instructions in otherwise static HTML. It's only that they made such a hack job without context-dependent, HTML-aware escaping, making it a primary vector for injection attacks.
- Macuyiko 6y ago
  I totally agree. What I'd actually welcome these days is a web "glue language" which adheres to what PHP wanted to be in the beginning (easy HTML output, one file per page, easy database querying, easy CGI interfacing), but without any OOP bolted on (C-style procedural would be fine), without any of the horrible security decisions, and with strong typing. It would make a nice counterpoint to all OOP-style web dev languages (Django, RoR, PHP8+framework + routing logic) and all frontend-focused frameworks (React, Vue). Super-simple, super old-fashioned, but rock-stable and easy to kickstart a small website or prototype, and great for teaching (nothing is easier than "drop a index.lang" file in this directory and you have a website).
  - mtberatwork 6y ago
    Isn't this what PHP still is? Can't you just drop index.php into a directory?
    - mgkimsal 6y ago
      Was going to ask the same thing. There's not much in PHP 5/7/8 which precludes just doing some raw db queries and including some templates. The biggest 'drawback' might be that there's not one name-branch 'framework' which takes this approach (indeed, it's the opposite of 'framework' thinking). But if there was some project that documented/demonstrated 'best practices' for 'non-framework' projects, it might help reduce the "I need a framework because raw PHP is so messy" objections.
      - 6y ago
thinkindie 6y ago
Symfony supports YAML files too since... almost forever.
- gregoriol 6y ago
  Which is a sad choice on it's own
  - welly 6y ago
    Is it? Why is that?
    - gregoriol 6y ago
      First because you don't really have completion or templating over its content: you mostly do copy/pasting or guessing what you have to put in there. Second because they are using all kind of tricks to add variables into it (ENV, ...): the configuration is often dynamic by nature or by re-use. Third because it's only strings, which is prone to mistakes: they are having a huge lot of code to check those configurations.
- malinens 6y ago
  actually in future versions symfony will move mostly to php based configs instead of yamk, xml. at least parts of internal configs which were xml now are rewritten to php
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

agumonkey 6y ago

It's a different culture. They go around the problems differently. Also the way the write programs seems simpler and leaner (composer in mind)... probably not ultra safe but a good enough ratio I guess.

throw_m239339 6y ago
> It's a different culture. They go around the problems differently. Also the way the write programs seems simpler and leaner (composer in mind)... probably not ultra safe but a good enough ratio I guess. No it's not a different culture, they(enterprise Java and enterprise PHP) both try to force some IoC container everywhere, except PHP is an interpreted language, it doesn't need a IoC container with with XML/YAML configuration files cause there is no long and costly compilation step to begin with...
- agumonkey 6y ago
  That's unrelated, you can tell very rapidly how nicer a tool like composer is from most java things of this era; this is entirely cultural IMO.. you can use xml or yaml in fine or absurd ways.
withinboredom 6y ago
I’ve seen some self-balancing backed priority queues implementations, using some quirks of PHP, that are faster than the C implemented ones and faster than a “standard” implementation. Wall clock time, it’s still O(log n).

cannedslime 6y ago

I agree with you. Symfony and composer in general has just turned our code base into some kind of fugly java like monstrosity. When I used composer the first time I really enjoyed it, that project also used Silex a minimalistic symfony2, which I also really liked. But what I found out is that in general it is really terrible to be dependent on others, as Silex was dropped by Potencier and my project is left in limbo, sadly. Its very sad because its one of the coolest things I ever worked on, and its still in use today many years after. But I am worrying that some time in the feature, a vulnerability or problem with Silex comes up, the company will have to rewrite the project completely some day. I worked alot with Drupal7, absolutely hated it mostly because the hook system was hard to remember and performance of Drupal7 in general was absolutely terrible. Then I tried Drupal8 and though some changes are welcome, some stuff are just so god damn complicated, a task that would have been as simple as a few lines of code becomes pages of boiler plate, EventSubscribers and YML config files. PHP used to be a good choice because it was rapid application development on crack cocaine, developers were cheap and diverse in skill and background. I still think there is SOME use for PHP, I personally like it for shell scripts mostly because im so familiar with it. I used it alot the past 10 years for making stuff fast for friends and personal use I guess its also a decent beginner language for web development, though javascript would be higher on my list today because of the obvious front end relation.

theluketowers 6y ago
Have you tried October CMS? It really gets back to the basics and is awesome for rapid application development. Disclaimer, I'm the lead maintainer
tpetry 6y ago
I have been bitten too by the abandoning of silex and symfony becoming more and more like a complex java beast. The zend framework 1 was once good with a simple abstraction but they turned java like too. Nowadays i develop in laravel which is breeze to work with. A simple framework and you can choose whether to use it as simple as silex, full blown like symfony or somewhere between. I started using it like a silex with controller classes and migrated more and more to the symfony way, but still its really easy understandable for any new developer.

tannhaeuser 6y ago

That's what baffles me with PHP. Instead of building on PHP's unique capabilities, they try to become more like Java. When PHP was and is quite successful as server-side language for HTML templating, rooted in embedded PHP triggered from SGMLish processing instructions in otherwise static HTML. It's only that they made such a hack job without context-dependent, HTML-aware escaping, making it a primary vector for injection attacks.

Macuyiko 6y ago
I totally agree. What I'd actually welcome these days is a web "glue language" which adheres to what PHP wanted to be in the beginning (easy HTML output, one file per page, easy database querying, easy CGI interfacing), but without any OOP bolted on (C-style procedural would be fine), without any of the horrible security decisions, and with strong typing. It would make a nice counterpoint to all OOP-style web dev languages (Django, RoR, PHP8+framework + routing logic) and all frontend-focused frameworks (React, Vue). Super-simple, super old-fashioned, but rock-stable and easy to kickstart a small website or prototype, and great for teaching (nothing is easier than "drop a index.lang" file in this directory and you have a website).
- mtberatwork 6y ago
  Isn't this what PHP still is? Can't you just drop index.php into a directory?
  - mgkimsal 6y ago
    Was going to ask the same thing. There's not much in PHP 5/7/8 which precludes just doing some raw db queries and including some templates. The biggest 'drawback' might be that there's not one name-branch 'framework' which takes this approach (indeed, it's the opposite of 'framework' thinking). But if there was some project that documented/demonstrated 'best practices' for 'non-framework' projects, it might help reduce the "I need a framework because raw PHP is so messy" objections.
    - 6y ago

thinkindie 6y ago

Symfony supports YAML files too since... almost forever.

gregoriol 6y ago
Which is a sad choice on it's own
- welly 6y ago
  Is it? Why is that?
  - gregoriol 6y ago
    First because you don't really have completion or templating over its content: you mostly do copy/pasting or guessing what you have to put in there. Second because they are using all kind of tricks to add variables into it (ENV, ...): the configuration is often dynamic by nature or by re-use. Third because it's only strings, which is prone to mistakes: they are having a huge lot of code to check those configurations.
malinens 6y ago
actually in future versions symfony will move mostly to php based configs instead of yamk, xml. at least parts of internal configs which were xml now are rewritten to php

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]