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For some people (me included) the office is a very productive environment. Some things I am really interested in can be smashed out at home with no problems. Bu

For some people (me included) the office is a very productive environment. Some things I am really interested in can be smashed out at home with no problems. But boring work is a chore unless I'm at the office where I can get my mind to say "you're at work, you're getting paid for this". I can do boring work well at work, whereas at home I wanna do anything just to get it out of my face. Not only that, for some people the commute is 1h each way and for others it's 10 minutes. So some people don't see the issue with going into the office every day. And unless everyone is going to work from home, if you're someone working from home but most other people are in the office then that can stifle your career development for internal promotions. Like it or not, the managers and higher ups will be in the office, it's easier to get to know someone in the office, it's easier to get inside knowledge on what's going on, what projects are happening, etc. I work for a company who has remote developers and none of them are leading anything or have any sort of significant power to influence decisions. They are just man power to get work done, even if that is wrong, that's how it is and I don't see it changing. For as long as this is the case I don't see fully remote working as a viable career choice. I would only do it for a company which is all remote or all software dev is remote.

DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
Thanks for writing this out as you've really hit the nail on the head. I manage a medium sized team and I can tell you some people are totally cool with just being a worker bee. I wish more of the conversation around WFH focused on how everyone is different, one size fits all rarely works, and if you do want to "get ahead" you'll need to put in face time. Period. Humans are social and want connection. Meritocracies are great in principal, but that's just plainly not how the world works. If you want managerial carrier development and growth, you have to put in the face time.
- shock 6y ago
  > I wish more of the conversation around WFH focused on how everyone is different, one size fits all rarely works and then > if you do want to "get ahead" you'll need to put in face time. Period. You've just prescribed a one-size-fits-all solution, in the same phrase as saying that it doesn't work. How are you resolving the cognitive dissonance?
  - DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
    Thanks for pointing that out. It was two different points. The first point was that some people don't want to climb the ladder and so should be happy/content with doing their job "working to live, not living to work" kind of idea. The second point I was trying to say was that if you only WFH, the same type of career opportunities that come from mastering soft-skills that build rapport will be unavailable. And where I was trying to go was to call out people who whine about this. I agree I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
- Philip-J-Fry 6y ago
  Yeah, the only thing I personally wanted from this huge WFH push was just the option of flexible working. Before the pandemic I never even had the option. Now I do have the option, and that's great. I'm never going to push for everyone working from home, or everyone working from the office. It should be flexible, it should be easy to make that choice when it suits you. Some weeks I'll go into work every day, some weeks I'll have a few days work from home. That's how I want to work. I still put in the face time, I still get to see most people. I just get to have a more relaxing time working from home now and then. I could never be a fully remote worker right now. But I'd always advocate for more flexibility. And I'll be honest, I like seeing my work colleagues, we have a laugh, and I'd miss that in a permanent work from home setting.
  - DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
    Yes, excellent point. The optionality is wonderful and my team has really taken to it. My favorite part is that some of their work is asymmetrical, so if they need to run to the store during working hours--totally fine!--they just finish up their work later in the day. It's really amazing what people will do when you tell them, "sure, WFH, you're an adult, I trust you to manage your time". And of course I've been very clear that if they we lose that trust, I will fire them :)
theshrike79 6y ago
Managing a split remote/local team is one of the hardest things to do. Nigh-impossible I'd say.
- rightbyte 6y ago
  On my prior gig we were in an office but communicated via Teams anyways since it was an open office and you could not talk without disturbing the 6 person wall-less booth. Communication from home is much easier since we just can call each other. But this is mainly due to bad office layout not wfh being better as a concept. It is probably a good idea to have office days even with remote teams. Half a day every other week or what ever.
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    Yep, even fully remote companies usually have in-person days or weeks at some schedule. Some things just are faster when you're all face to face, no amount of remote tooling or processes can change that. I'm pretty sure our future will be a hybrid of remote/office work, depending on the state of the project and company. Plan stuff in person, then spend a few weeks remotely executing the plan with your team.
garenp 6y ago
Your last point about career development is an interesting one that comes up. If you are remote but your co-workers are interacting in person I can see how there would be an informational advantage in favor of your co-workers that is unavoidable. My preference is to WFH most of the time, but not all the time. When WFH for awhile, I can much more easily get into a zen-like state of concentration after an hour or so that is extremely difficult to get in an office. At the office I have to contend with constant sources of distractions and interruptions (people walking up on foot, phone ringing, non-work related discussion, ...) which has often made me feel like the only time I can push through a hard problem is during off-hours when no one is around. Most importantly, being in a zen-like state while working and getting stuff done is what makes work enjoyable for me. That said, whenever there is a significant amount of collaboration or a need for a lot of round-trip communication with someone (new employee, need to bring someone up to speed, ...) it's better in person - but I find this to be only an occasional need.
EliRivers 6y ago
Putting aside the 4000 GBP (5200 USD) I no longer have to pay each year for the privilege of taking the train to work, I would definitely trade a significant amount of career success for a lifetime working from home. It's so, so good. Obviously others have a different take, but I can see myself never going into the office regularly again.

DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago

Thanks for writing this out as you've really hit the nail on the head. I manage a medium sized team and I can tell you some people are totally cool with just being a worker bee. I wish more of the conversation around WFH focused on how everyone is different, one size fits all rarely works, and if you do want to "get ahead" you'll need to put in face time. Period. Humans are social and want connection. Meritocracies are great in principal, but that's just plainly not how the world works. If you want managerial carrier development and growth, you have to put in the face time.

shock 6y ago
> I wish more of the conversation around WFH focused on how everyone is different, one size fits all rarely works and then > if you do want to "get ahead" you'll need to put in face time. Period. You've just prescribed a one-size-fits-all solution, in the same phrase as saying that it doesn't work. How are you resolving the cognitive dissonance?
- DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out. It was two different points. The first point was that some people don't want to climb the ladder and so should be happy/content with doing their job "working to live, not living to work" kind of idea. The second point I was trying to say was that if you only WFH, the same type of career opportunities that come from mastering soft-skills that build rapport will be unavailable. And where I was trying to go was to call out people who whine about this. I agree I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
Philip-J-Fry 6y ago
Yeah, the only thing I personally wanted from this huge WFH push was just the option of flexible working. Before the pandemic I never even had the option. Now I do have the option, and that's great. I'm never going to push for everyone working from home, or everyone working from the office. It should be flexible, it should be easy to make that choice when it suits you. Some weeks I'll go into work every day, some weeks I'll have a few days work from home. That's how I want to work. I still put in the face time, I still get to see most people. I just get to have a more relaxing time working from home now and then. I could never be a fully remote worker right now. But I'd always advocate for more flexibility. And I'll be honest, I like seeing my work colleagues, we have a laugh, and I'd miss that in a permanent work from home setting.
- DrAwdeOccarim 6y ago
  Yes, excellent point. The optionality is wonderful and my team has really taken to it. My favorite part is that some of their work is asymmetrical, so if they need to run to the store during working hours--totally fine!--they just finish up their work later in the day. It's really amazing what people will do when you tell them, "sure, WFH, you're an adult, I trust you to manage your time". And of course I've been very clear that if they we lose that trust, I will fire them :)

theshrike79 6y ago

Managing a split remote/local team is one of the hardest things to do. Nigh-impossible I'd say.

rightbyte 6y ago
On my prior gig we were in an office but communicated via Teams anyways since it was an open office and you could not talk without disturbing the 6 person wall-less booth. Communication from home is much easier since we just can call each other. But this is mainly due to bad office layout not wfh being better as a concept. It is probably a good idea to have office days even with remote teams. Half a day every other week or what ever.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  Yep, even fully remote companies usually have in-person days or weeks at some schedule. Some things just are faster when you're all face to face, no amount of remote tooling or processes can change that. I'm pretty sure our future will be a hybrid of remote/office work, depending on the state of the project and company. Plan stuff in person, then spend a few weeks remotely executing the plan with your team.

garenp 6y ago

Your last point about career development is an interesting one that comes up. If you are remote but your co-workers are interacting in person I can see how there would be an informational advantage in favor of your co-workers that is unavoidable. My preference is to WFH most of the time, but not all the time. When WFH for awhile, I can much more easily get into a zen-like state of concentration after an hour or so that is extremely difficult to get in an office. At the office I have to contend with constant sources of distractions and interruptions (people walking up on foot, phone ringing, non-work related discussion, ...) which has often made me feel like the only time I can push through a hard problem is during off-hours when no one is around. Most importantly, being in a zen-like state while working and getting stuff done is what makes work enjoyable for me. That said, whenever there is a significant amount of collaboration or a need for a lot of round-trip communication with someone (new employee, need to bring someone up to speed, ...) it's better in person - but I find this to be only an occasional need.

EliRivers 6y ago

Putting aside the 4000 GBP (5200 USD) I no longer have to pay each year for the privilege of taking the train to work, I would definitely trade a significant amount of career success for a lifetime working from home. It's so, so good. Obviously others have a different take, but I can see myself never going into the office regularly again.