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Anecdotally: 100% counter to what virtually every Lyft driver who drives full-time has told me. Data-wise: Where is your evidence? I thought that by now, the

Anecdotally: 100% counter to what virtually every Lyft driver who drives full-time has told me. Data-wise: Where is your evidence? I thought that by now, the free market would have solved all of the above problems? Philosophically: No one's job should be dependent on tips. Tips ALWAYS are filtered via biases that tap into sexism, racism, xenophobia, and never a financially responsible way of building an economy. Vote no Prop 22, otherwise you are bailing out failed companies that work on unreliable business models.

okareaman 6y ago
Are you aware that the majority of drivers don't drive full time? If full time drivers don't like it or don't make enough they should apply for employment at a company that meets their needs. A lot of service workers depend on tips.
- jonathan-neil 6y ago
  Do you have any data to back that up? You have made claim after claim on this thread with absolutely zero references for the information. Impossible not to classify you as a shill at this point.
  - xenospn 6y ago
    Absolutely a shill. I couldn't find anyone who supports Prop 22, even among several of my Uber/Lyft driver friends. They seem to the ones who are most opposed to it.
    - okareaman 6y ago
      I should have mentioned that your city matters. Fresno and Modesto absolutely suck for drivers. Not sure why anyone drives there.
  - manquer 6y ago
    Bartenders, and waiters heavily dependent on tips. As non American visiting it is always taxing for me to figure what to tip. I am more accustomed to price including the waiters salary and rarely only tipping when service is truly exceptional. This is also the reason I and many others prefer ride shares, price is transparent and upfront, in traditional taxies the negotiations depends on your local knowledge, knowledge of drivers' language etc and your people skills and it takes effort.
    - mrguyorama 6y ago
      In regular taxis there is no negotiation. The meter says a number, you pay that number, and if the driver doesn't like it, that's their problem
      - manquer 6y ago
        You have only travelled in nice places then. A standard practice in many many places to take the unfamiliar passenger for a ride, taking the longer route, or going in circles just to run up the meter. While with gps and smartphones going in circles has come down, taking a different route, or other more subtle meter running happens still. It can be a lot worse with straight up cheating too. I have seen souped up meters which are not directly connected to odometers etc. I have also seen places where if you don't know the language and/or localite they will demand more than the meter and create a scene get nearby friends to support them. When running late to airport or someplace urgent pretending no change to charge more . The list of tricks go on, ridesharing did away with a lot of that. P.S. it is not all taxi drivers are evil or something, plenty of them have been really helpful in tough spots even the ones who ripped me off have come back to return a valuable item I missed.
- djur 6y ago
  The service industry underpaying their workers shouldn't be an excuse for expanding the practice. The tip economy should be rolled back, not allowed to spread.
- appleflaxen 6y ago
  > A lot of service workers depend on tips. This isn't a good argument that tips are a beneficial practice.
- mepiethree 6y ago
  But service workers are also usually employees and have disability and unemployment insurance. They also often pick their shift times. You can have flexibility without being a contractor.
qeternity 6y ago
> Anecdotally: Just before... > Data-wise: > Where is your evidence? Too ironic. > Vote no Prop 22, otherwise you are bailing out failed companies that work on unreliable business models. I love this. You're conflating a business model that doesn't work under a set of (possibly) onerous regulations to a failed business model. Who has it failed for? And don't say investors, because these are smart people who believe there is a path to profitability.
- djur 6y ago
  Do you have a response aside from "too ironic"?
- foepys 6y ago
  Uber hasn't made any profit yet. They are a worldwide operating player for years now and didn't have single profitable quarter. Do you call this sustainable? VC money and not paying benefits for their drivers is the only thing keeping it alive.
- greendude29 6y ago
  ...no? I wasn't making a specific claim, so didn't find the need to present data, you know, for the claim I'm not making. > I love this. You're conflating a business model that doesn't work under a set of (possibly) onerous regulations to a failed business model. Who has it failed for? And don't say investors, because these are smart people who believe there is a path to profitability. It's a failed business model because it cannot operate once these companies are asked to pay living wages - which they don't. Hence...failed. If I were to open up a factory and paid my workers $0.50/hour and then got shut down for not paying minimum wage; the burden of that failure would be on me, not the state that's asking me to pay minimum wage. Who cares about investors?
cactus2093 6y ago
How do so many programmers commenting online, who can easily make $150k+ if not $350k+ a year, feel so qualified to weigh in on what’s right and wrong for low skilled, low wage workers, when it goes specifically against these people’s own wishes? Is it a matter of guilt? You feel guilty for having a decent paying job when not everybody does, and this seems like a silver bullet to fix everything? A majority of drivers support prop 22, I don’t understand how more people don’t weigh that into their decision making. To you, you want to stick it to the greedy bastards at Uber by forcing this law through, and if it runs them out of business all the better. Have you considered there are millions of drivers that would actually like to keep their ability to work, and this is not just a big virtue signaling exercise to them like it is to you?
- hornd 6y ago
  It's similar to a lot of the people voting yes on 23: they want to stick it to the dialysis companies. I get that, but how is the prime consideration here not patient care? Drives me crazy how people will gleefully ignore the potential patient effect in favor of "punishing" corporations.

okareaman 6y ago

Are you aware that the majority of drivers don't drive full time? If full time drivers don't like it or don't make enough they should apply for employment at a company that meets their needs. A lot of service workers depend on tips.

jonathan-neil 6y ago
Do you have any data to back that up? You have made claim after claim on this thread with absolutely zero references for the information. Impossible not to classify you as a shill at this point.
- xenospn 6y ago
  Absolutely a shill. I couldn't find anyone who supports Prop 22, even among several of my Uber/Lyft driver friends. They seem to the ones who are most opposed to it.
  - okareaman 6y ago
    I should have mentioned that your city matters. Fresno and Modesto absolutely suck for drivers. Not sure why anyone drives there.
- manquer 6y ago
  Bartenders, and waiters heavily dependent on tips. As non American visiting it is always taxing for me to figure what to tip. I am more accustomed to price including the waiters salary and rarely only tipping when service is truly exceptional. This is also the reason I and many others prefer ride shares, price is transparent and upfront, in traditional taxies the negotiations depends on your local knowledge, knowledge of drivers' language etc and your people skills and it takes effort.
  - mrguyorama 6y ago
    In regular taxis there is no negotiation. The meter says a number, you pay that number, and if the driver doesn't like it, that's their problem
    - manquer 6y ago
      You have only travelled in nice places then. A standard practice in many many places to take the unfamiliar passenger for a ride, taking the longer route, or going in circles just to run up the meter. While with gps and smartphones going in circles has come down, taking a different route, or other more subtle meter running happens still. It can be a lot worse with straight up cheating too. I have seen souped up meters which are not directly connected to odometers etc. I have also seen places where if you don't know the language and/or localite they will demand more than the meter and create a scene get nearby friends to support them. When running late to airport or someplace urgent pretending no change to charge more . The list of tricks go on, ridesharing did away with a lot of that. P.S. it is not all taxi drivers are evil or something, plenty of them have been really helpful in tough spots even the ones who ripped me off have come back to return a valuable item I missed.
djur 6y ago
The service industry underpaying their workers shouldn't be an excuse for expanding the practice. The tip economy should be rolled back, not allowed to spread.
appleflaxen 6y ago
> A lot of service workers depend on tips. This isn't a good argument that tips are a beneficial practice.
mepiethree 6y ago
But service workers are also usually employees and have disability and unemployment insurance. They also often pick their shift times. You can have flexibility without being a contractor.

qeternity 6y ago

> Anecdotally: Just before... > Data-wise: > Where is your evidence? Too ironic. > Vote no Prop 22, otherwise you are bailing out failed companies that work on unreliable business models. I love this. You're conflating a business model that doesn't work under a set of (possibly) onerous regulations to a failed business model. Who has it failed for? And don't say investors, because these are smart people who believe there is a path to profitability.

djur 6y ago
Do you have a response aside from "too ironic"?
foepys 6y ago
Uber hasn't made any profit yet. They are a worldwide operating player for years now and didn't have single profitable quarter. Do you call this sustainable? VC money and not paying benefits for their drivers is the only thing keeping it alive.
greendude29 6y ago
...no? I wasn't making a specific claim, so didn't find the need to present data, you know, for the claim I'm not making. > I love this. You're conflating a business model that doesn't work under a set of (possibly) onerous regulations to a failed business model. Who has it failed for? And don't say investors, because these are smart people who believe there is a path to profitability. It's a failed business model because it cannot operate once these companies are asked to pay living wages - which they don't. Hence...failed. If I were to open up a factory and paid my workers $0.50/hour and then got shut down for not paying minimum wage; the burden of that failure would be on me, not the state that's asking me to pay minimum wage. Who cares about investors?

cactus2093 6y ago

How do so many programmers commenting online, who can easily make $150k+ if not $350k+ a year, feel so qualified to weigh in on what’s right and wrong for low skilled, low wage workers, when it goes specifically against these people’s own wishes? Is it a matter of guilt? You feel guilty for having a decent paying job when not everybody does, and this seems like a silver bullet to fix everything? A majority of drivers support prop 22, I don’t understand how more people don’t weigh that into their decision making. To you, you want to stick it to the greedy bastards at Uber by forcing this law through, and if it runs them out of business all the better. Have you considered there are millions of drivers that would actually like to keep their ability to work, and this is not just a big virtue signaling exercise to them like it is to you?

hornd 6y ago
It's similar to a lot of the people voting yes on 23: they want to stick it to the dialysis companies. I get that, but how is the prime consideration here not patient care? Drives me crazy how people will gleefully ignore the potential patient effect in favor of "punishing" corporations.