4 ms·

I spoke with a famous dean who told me, to the effect that, we have been instructed to focus heavily on candidates with the right gender and certain attributes

by aborsy 6y ago

I spoke with a famous dean who told me, to the effect that, we have been instructed to focus heavily on candidates with the right gender and certain attributes (that you may imagine). Basically if you are not born in this pool, forget it. By the way, politics has got really extreme. Networks are super important. I see a lot of local hires. In some places, they only hire their own students or swap with students at partner labs. With these developments, I doubt funding academia is efficient allocation of public resources. I support cutting funds. This system will not produce science. It’s shocking how much money is spent, and how many people are in the chain, each outsourcing the problem to someone below, until a graduate student typically an immigrant will simulate something.

tqi 6y ago
I'm pretty sure the Terry Taos of the world are still getting their pick of faculty positions, regardless of their "pool". The people who are being displaced, while certainly talented, are not indisputably more talented than the people who "are born in this pool". So it's probably not the case that we're missing out on any major breakthroughs. > It’s shocking how much money is spent, and how many people are in the chain, each outsourcing the problem to someone below, until a graduate student typically an immigrant will simulate something. Have you ever worked at a company?
- aborsy 6y ago
  Oh, no. I assure you your understanding of the academic environment is flawed. The politics is only intensified at the top. You need to have some skills, but much of it is politics and it is as intense as in industry if not more. You will be surprise if I tell you stories about major awards and recognitions. These are becoming norms than exceptions. I have worked partly in industry.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    "is as intense as in industry if not more" That wasn't my experience - I've never seen anything like the politics I saw in an academic department in industry. It was one of the reasons I left as I got the distinct impression that you have to politic like mad to get ahead and that really didn't interest me. UK rather than US though. You know what they say: "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."
- mnky9800n 6y ago
  > Have you ever worked at a company? The argument is always that the company can do whatever it wants with it's money but the scientist uses the public money. But this seems to be a giant flawed argument since neo-liberalism hands public money to companies without taking a breath.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  > So it's probably not the case that we're missing out on any major breakthroughs. Meanwhile, the guy who contributed the key insight that's lead to drastic reductions in the size of the prime gap problem, is working at a Subway. [0] Hmm. --- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitang_Zhang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitang_Zhang
  - croissants 6y ago
    > is working at a Subway To clarify, he's currently faculty at UCSB [1], although he did work at Subway sometime after finishing his PhD. [1] https://www.math.ucsb.edu/people/yitang-tom-zhang https://www.math.ucsb.edu/people/yitang-tom-zhang
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      Yes, I deliberately, though not disingenuously, failed to mention that part, for rhetorical effect. One should also note that UCSB has a much better math department than people might think.
  - tqi 6y ago
    From that Wikipedia article: In a detailed profile published in The New Yorker magazine in February 2015, Alec Wilkinson wrote Zhang "parted unhappily" with Moh, and that Zhang "left Purdue without Moh’s support, and, having published no papers, was unable to find an academic job". I don't think it was being "born in the wrong pool" that caused him not to get a academic job immediately... hmm
question000 6y ago
I spoke with a famous dean and he said that they don't look at gender or demographics at all and right-wing people like to lie on Hacker News. Basically if there's a post about academia right-wing groups will try to stir up racial tensions anyway they can. But I'm a 100% serious a "famous dean" told me that.
- aborsy 6y ago
  I had applied to a school for a faculty position when I was a postdoctoral fellow. The application was not successful. The following summer I met the dean at a conference, asked about the position and complained.
  - jjk166 6y ago
    Which is less awkward: telling someone they aren't as qualified as they think they are, or making up a story about some policy and saying your hands were tied by factors beyond either of your control? You're saying this guy is a high ranking member of an organization completely embroiled in internal politics. Would such a politically savvy person have any qualms about lying to someone at a party?
enumjorge 6y ago
> I spoke with a famous dean who told me, to the effect that, we have been instructed to focus heavily on candidates with the right gender and certain attributes (that you may imagine). Basically if you are not born in this pool, forget it. Posting this type of hearsay is kind of irresponsible. It’s so vague and suggestive. We don’t know who the dean is or where this happened but he’s allegedly famous (juicy!), and apparently he didn’t literally say this but said it “to the effect” (surely we can trust you interpretation), and we’re left to imagine the type of attributes that might give a candidate an edge. What are we supposed to do with this? You then go on to cite this as a reason why academia is no longer an efficient allocation of public resources. As if academia has not long been a place with arbitrary gatekeeping. Have you noticed that until not that long ago female faculty in STEM fields weren’t that common? I’m not saying diversity efforts are implemented well in all institutions. But criticism of these measures so often feel hollow. Any hint of the system favoring a different type of candidate and a certain pool of applicants (with demographics that you may imagine) suddenly start caring about truly equal treatment. Before, being a woman would automatically reduce your chances, but somehow that didn’t affect the credibility of these institutions. Suddenly now we care about whether they are a good use of public resources.
- woohoojoo 6y ago
  I support that person sharing their views. I don't think they should be censored simply because you suggest they're thinking "wrong think". It's patently obvious that academic institutions have a political bent.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- achillesheels 6y ago
  Academia has historically been oriented toward Divinity, not towards diversity. You’re simply in denial if you think this is the case any longer.
UncleMeat 6y ago
I’ve also known pretenured faculty who have said, out loud, that they don’t like working with women because they work less hard. This did not prevent their tenure case from succeeding.
- woohoojoo 6y ago
  In many animal species, males attract female mating partners by displaying their material resource accumulation. Hypothetically, if human males attract females through resource accumulation then it goes to reason that the impetus to build resources are predicated on their application of skills and work in the material economy. Therefore, if females are not those attracting males through resource accumulation, but rather males attracting females through resource accumulation, then it goes to reason that males have a stronger impetus to work in the material economy when compares to females.
908B64B197 6y ago
If that was true we would see a clear gap in the admitted pool between schools that admit solely on academic merit and those who don't. Can we observe such a gap?
doc_gunthrop 6y ago
Regarding the politics, it's not surprising in the least. There was some controversy earlier this month surrounding a significant change in the admissions process at the top public high school in San Francisco[1]. Historically, this school based their admissions process on academic performance; a student's standardized tests scores and GPA were the criteria used to determine whether they were accepted into the school. As a result, the largest demographic were Asian American students. So affirmative action was put in place, so non-Asians who performed worse academically got admitted over Asians who performed better. Even with this race-based discriminatory policy, about half of the student body consisted of Chinese-Americans and the percentage continued to increase. Now, the SFUSD school board has voted to change the admissions process to a lottery. They have effectively made it clear that academic achievement has no merit. They are prioritizing racial identity over education, and even have the audacity to claim that anyone who opposes this decision is racist[2]. So, yes, politics has indeed gotten very extreme in academia. 1: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Lowell-High-School-will-use-lottery-admission-15662977.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Lowell-High-Sc... 2: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Chaos-and-a-hot-mic-moment-S-F-school-board-15645962.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Chaos-and-a-ho...

by aborsy 6y ago

tqi 6y ago

I'm pretty sure the Terry Taos of the world are still getting their pick of faculty positions, regardless of their "pool". The people who are being displaced, while certainly talented, are not indisputably more talented than the people who "are born in this pool". So it's probably not the case that we're missing out on any major breakthroughs. > It’s shocking how much money is spent, and how many people are in the chain, each outsourcing the problem to someone below, until a graduate student typically an immigrant will simulate something. Have you ever worked at a company?

aborsy 6y ago
Oh, no. I assure you your understanding of the academic environment is flawed. The politics is only intensified at the top. You need to have some skills, but much of it is politics and it is as intense as in industry if not more. You will be surprise if I tell you stories about major awards and recognitions. These are becoming norms than exceptions. I have worked partly in industry.
- arethuza 6y ago
  "is as intense as in industry if not more" That wasn't my experience - I've never seen anything like the politics I saw in an academic department in industry. It was one of the reasons I left as I got the distinct impression that you have to politic like mad to get ahead and that really didn't interest me. UK rather than US though. You know what they say: "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."
mnky9800n 6y ago
> Have you ever worked at a company? The argument is always that the company can do whatever it wants with it's money but the scientist uses the public money. But this seems to be a giant flawed argument since neo-liberalism hands public money to companies without taking a breath.
pmiller2 6y ago
> So it's probably not the case that we're missing out on any major breakthroughs. Meanwhile, the guy who contributed the key insight that's lead to drastic reductions in the size of the prime gap problem, is working at a Subway. [0] Hmm. --- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitang_Zhang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitang_Zhang
- croissants 6y ago
  > is working at a Subway To clarify, he's currently faculty at UCSB [1], although he did work at Subway sometime after finishing his PhD. [1] https://www.math.ucsb.edu/people/yitang-tom-zhang https://www.math.ucsb.edu/people/yitang-tom-zhang
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    Yes, I deliberately, though not disingenuously, failed to mention that part, for rhetorical effect. One should also note that UCSB has a much better math department than people might think.
- tqi 6y ago
  From that Wikipedia article: In a detailed profile published in The New Yorker magazine in February 2015, Alec Wilkinson wrote Zhang "parted unhappily" with Moh, and that Zhang "left Purdue without Moh’s support, and, having published no papers, was unable to find an academic job". I don't think it was being "born in the wrong pool" that caused him not to get a academic job immediately... hmm

question000 6y ago

I spoke with a famous dean and he said that they don't look at gender or demographics at all and right-wing people like to lie on Hacker News. Basically if there's a post about academia right-wing groups will try to stir up racial tensions anyway they can. But I'm a 100% serious a "famous dean" told me that.

aborsy 6y ago
I had applied to a school for a faculty position when I was a postdoctoral fellow. The application was not successful. The following summer I met the dean at a conference, asked about the position and complained.
- jjk166 6y ago
  Which is less awkward: telling someone they aren't as qualified as they think they are, or making up a story about some policy and saying your hands were tied by factors beyond either of your control? You're saying this guy is a high ranking member of an organization completely embroiled in internal politics. Would such a politically savvy person have any qualms about lying to someone at a party?

enumjorge 6y ago

> I spoke with a famous dean who told me, to the effect that, we have been instructed to focus heavily on candidates with the right gender and certain attributes (that you may imagine). Basically if you are not born in this pool, forget it. Posting this type of hearsay is kind of irresponsible. It’s so vague and suggestive. We don’t know who the dean is or where this happened but he’s allegedly famous (juicy!), and apparently he didn’t literally say this but said it “to the effect” (surely we can trust you interpretation), and we’re left to imagine the type of attributes that might give a candidate an edge. What are we supposed to do with this? You then go on to cite this as a reason why academia is no longer an efficient allocation of public resources. As if academia has not long been a place with arbitrary gatekeeping. Have you noticed that until not that long ago female faculty in STEM fields weren’t that common? I’m not saying diversity efforts are implemented well in all institutions. But criticism of these measures so often feel hollow. Any hint of the system favoring a different type of candidate and a certain pool of applicants (with demographics that you may imagine) suddenly start caring about truly equal treatment. Before, being a woman would automatically reduce your chances, but somehow that didn’t affect the credibility of these institutions. Suddenly now we care about whether they are a good use of public resources.

woohoojoo 6y ago
I support that person sharing their views. I don't think they should be censored simply because you suggest they're thinking "wrong think". It's patently obvious that academic institutions have a political bent.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
achillesheels 6y ago
Academia has historically been oriented toward Divinity, not towards diversity. You’re simply in denial if you think this is the case any longer.

UncleMeat 6y ago

I’ve also known pretenured faculty who have said, out loud, that they don’t like working with women because they work less hard. This did not prevent their tenure case from succeeding.

woohoojoo 6y ago
In many animal species, males attract female mating partners by displaying their material resource accumulation. Hypothetically, if human males attract females through resource accumulation then it goes to reason that the impetus to build resources are predicated on their application of skills and work in the material economy. Therefore, if females are not those attracting males through resource accumulation, but rather males attracting females through resource accumulation, then it goes to reason that males have a stronger impetus to work in the material economy when compares to females.

908B64B197 6y ago

If that was true we would see a clear gap in the admitted pool between schools that admit solely on academic merit and those who don't. Can we observe such a gap?

doc_gunthrop 6y ago

Regarding the politics, it's not surprising in the least. There was some controversy earlier this month surrounding a significant change in the admissions process at the top public high school in San Francisco[1]. Historically, this school based their admissions process on academic performance; a student's standardized tests scores and GPA were the criteria used to determine whether they were accepted into the school. As a result, the largest demographic were Asian American students. So affirmative action was put in place, so non-Asians who performed worse academically got admitted over Asians who performed better. Even with this race-based discriminatory policy, about half of the student body consisted of Chinese-Americans and the percentage continued to increase. Now, the SFUSD school board has voted to change the admissions process to a lottery. They have effectively made it clear that academic achievement has no merit. They are prioritizing racial identity over education, and even have the audacity to claim that anyone who opposes this decision is racist[2]. So, yes, politics has indeed gotten very extreme in academia. 1: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Lowell-High-School-will-use-lottery-admission-15662977.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Lowell-High-Sc... 2: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Chaos-and-a-hot-mic-moment-S-F-school-board-15645962.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Chaos-and-a-ho...