4 ms·

"Unless I misunderstand your position (which is certainly possible), you appear to claim that other citizens (in this case, Eich) should not have the right to v

"Unless I misunderstand your position (which is certainly possible), you appear to claim that other citizens (in this case, Eich) should not have the right to vote their conscience if you (or I, for that matter) disagree with their position" I think so. I'm not saying he can't vote his conscience but if he votes for a measure to revoke the right to marry from people in his OWN company those people are free to oppose his appointment as CEO as part of their freedom of expression. "I can't agree with your assessment that he "forced" anyone to do anything." You're right. He attempted and failed to do so since the measure didn't pass. It's not inconsistent to democratically vote for something that restricts the freedoms of someone else. Gun laws, abortion, wearing masks, etc. And people are free to associate with me based on my views on the subject.

nobody9999 6y ago
So I wasn't wrapping anything in the flag or being disingenuous then? Thanks for the apology.
BrendanEich 6y ago
Prop 8 passed. Obama had the same position I did in 2008. What's with the ignorance or (I hope not) revisionist history?
- nobody9999 6y ago
  Fortunately, Proposition 8 was invalidated by Hollingsworth v. Perry[0] (I recommend reading the trial transcripts, they clearly show the ethical bankruptcy of Prop 8). Even better, Obergfell v. Hodges[1] made marriage equality the law in the entire US in 2015. Better late than never. While I strenuously disagree with the position you held (still hold?) around marriage equality and find such a stance to be illiberal and downright nasty, I also believe that your right to hold that position as a private citizen should be tolerated in a free society. What's more, I don't believe that your opinions (and actions related to them) as a private citizen should be reason to hound you out of your professional position, unless you used your position to impose those opinions on the workplace you managed. It's unfortunate that some people hold opinions about freedom of thought and the exercise of the political franchise that are as odious as your opinions about marriage equality. And it's even worse that such people executed on their illiberal, reactionary ideas to force you from your position. A free society must tolerate unpopular and illiberal ideas, or it's not a free society. Which is why I have decried your ouster from Mozilla in this thread. That said, I believe your ideas about marriage equality are illiberal, anti-democratic and just plain nasty. But they are your ideas, and in a free society, you are entitled to them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_v._Schwarzenegger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_v._Schwarzenegger [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
  - BrendanEich 6y ago
    Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211419. There's no point arguing if you can't even accurately state the other side's views (you know, the ones Obama aligned himself with in 2008 in order to get elected). This used to be a required skill in political debating, but it's not taught or practiced much now. It definitely is more work than simply putting bad intentions or premises into your opponent's mouth, grandstanding against the resulting straw-man, and hiving off into disjoint factions that can be divided and conquered more easily. Still, I would never pull that kind of crap on you or any other HN antagonists. We need to work together against common enemies, if we can. Warmongers, crypto-backdoor advocates, surveillance capitalists, banksters, polluters, DRM-everything vendors -- in general, the monied interests and oligarchs who call too many shots today.
    - nobody9999 6y ago
      >There's no point arguing if you can't even accurately state the other side's views (you know, the ones Obama aligned himself with in 2008 in order to get elected). Obviously, I don't know the specific thoughts in your head, but I expect (and please do correct me if I am wrong) it goes something like this: "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid, and are the only marriages which should be recognized. But a 'civil union' would be okay as that wouldn't violate my religious belief." Or something similar. Your agreement with President Obama's stated alignment to similar views, which (as I'm sure you know) turned out not to be his views[0] at all clarifies your view for me. Thank you. However, regardless of your personal views (especially as it appears to be part of your religious belief), it's inappropriate for California or the US as a whole to regulate civil marriage in this fashion. As Judge Walker found in Hollingsworth v. Perry, Proposition 8 was a violation of the due process and equal protection rights of those seeking to marry others of the same biological sex[0]. And I believe that reasoning, as well as the evidence and legal arguments presented[1], were more than sufficient to support Judge Walker's ruling. I strongly recommend you read those transcripts, as I did. The arguments and evidence presented are clear and convincing. But I'd go even further and say that regulating marriage in this way to satisfy a specific set of religious beliefs is unsupportable on First Amendment grounds (and applied to the several states via the 14th Amendment), as preferring one set of beliefs disadvantages the First Amendment rights of others who do not share those beliefs. The views you appear to hold and that President Obama claimed to hold are, if codified into law, in direct conflict with the Constitution. While you may believe that it's morally or ethically wrong for those of the same sex to marry, and to act upon that belief (by not marrying someone of the same sex), it is not permissible for the government to enshrine that belief into law. As such, it's not that I don't understand those views. Although whether I understand them or not is irrelevant. My issue is that the government is restricted from giving preference to those (or any other) religious views. Those religious views may be relevant to those who hold them, but they cannot be imposed on others who do not. It's a pretty simple idea. That's no straw-man. That's a core tenet of our system of government. >Still, I would never pull that kind of crap on you or any other HN antagonists. We need to work together against common enemies, if we can. Warmongers, crypto-backdoor advocates, surveillance capitalists, banksters, polluters, DRM-everything vendors -- in general, the monied interests and oligarchs who call too many shots today. You apparently misunderstand my point and my motivation. Just because I disagree with your views on this particular subject, doesn't necessarily mean that I must needs reject any other views you might have. Don't confuse me with someone who immediately assumes you are an unredeemably evil person because you don't share this particular view with me. I never said anything even approaching that. What's more, the issue is moot and has been for just over five years. You accuse me of "putting bad intentions or premises into your opponent's mouth, grandstanding against the resulting straw-man, and hiving off into disjoint factions that can be divided and conquered more easily," but that's clearly not the case. In fact, if you read through this thread you'll see that I strongly support your right not only to hold the views that you do, but to act upon those views, within the strictures of our legal system, as you see fit. Even more, you assume that I am unwilling to work with those who share some goals, but not others. As to the ones you mention: "Warmongers, crypto-backdoor advocates, surveillance capitalists, banksters, polluters, DRM-everything vendors -- in general, the monied interests and oligarchs who call too many shots today," I am also appalled and wish to change the trajectory of each and every one of those important issues. And I'm happy to work with those who support those goals and wish to address them in a principled way. As I said repeatedly in this thread, that if we wish to have a free society, we must tolerate even -- no, especially -- views with which we vehemently disagree. It's not about specific views or ideas, it's the principle that's important -- at least to me. That I disagree with your views on marriage equality (or at least what I understand of them based on your support for Proposition 8 and your further elucidation here) is based in exactly the same set of principles. As you should have noted, I loosed my venom just as strongly against those who seek to punish or silence others for views with which they disagree. And again I do so in support of exactly the same principles. I find it disappointing that you attack me for expressing my views while I'm defending your right to express yours. More's the pity. To put a fine point on that, please note that I did not denigrate you as a human or a citizen, nor did I call for you to be silenced or forced to betray your beliefs. Just the opposite in fact. All I did was rather pointedly disagree with (my understanding of) your views on marriage equality. Please try to separate your reaction from my statements. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/10/obama-frustrated-same-sex-marriage-david-axelrod-book https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/10/obama-frustr... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/supreme-court-prop-8-oral-arguments-transcript.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/sup...

nobody9999 6y ago

So I wasn't wrapping anything in the flag or being disingenuous then? Thanks for the apology.

BrendanEich 6y ago

Prop 8 passed. Obama had the same position I did in 2008. What's with the ignorance or (I hope not) revisionist history?

nobody9999 6y ago
Fortunately, Proposition 8 was invalidated by Hollingsworth v. Perry[0] (I recommend reading the trial transcripts, they clearly show the ethical bankruptcy of Prop 8). Even better, Obergfell v. Hodges[1] made marriage equality the law in the entire US in 2015. Better late than never. While I strenuously disagree with the position you held (still hold?) around marriage equality and find such a stance to be illiberal and downright nasty, I also believe that your right to hold that position as a private citizen should be tolerated in a free society. What's more, I don't believe that your opinions (and actions related to them) as a private citizen should be reason to hound you out of your professional position, unless you used your position to impose those opinions on the workplace you managed. It's unfortunate that some people hold opinions about freedom of thought and the exercise of the political franchise that are as odious as your opinions about marriage equality. And it's even worse that such people executed on their illiberal, reactionary ideas to force you from your position. A free society must tolerate unpopular and illiberal ideas, or it's not a free society. Which is why I have decried your ouster from Mozilla in this thread. That said, I believe your ideas about marriage equality are illiberal, anti-democratic and just plain nasty. But they are your ideas, and in a free society, you are entitled to them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_v._Schwarzenegger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_v._Schwarzenegger [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
- BrendanEich 6y ago
  Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211419. There's no point arguing if you can't even accurately state the other side's views (you know, the ones Obama aligned himself with in 2008 in order to get elected). This used to be a required skill in political debating, but it's not taught or practiced much now. It definitely is more work than simply putting bad intentions or premises into your opponent's mouth, grandstanding against the resulting straw-man, and hiving off into disjoint factions that can be divided and conquered more easily. Still, I would never pull that kind of crap on you or any other HN antagonists. We need to work together against common enemies, if we can. Warmongers, crypto-backdoor advocates, surveillance capitalists, banksters, polluters, DRM-everything vendors -- in general, the monied interests and oligarchs who call too many shots today.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    >There's no point arguing if you can't even accurately state the other side's views (you know, the ones Obama aligned himself with in 2008 in order to get elected). Obviously, I don't know the specific thoughts in your head, but I expect (and please do correct me if I am wrong) it goes something like this: "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid, and are the only marriages which should be recognized. But a 'civil union' would be okay as that wouldn't violate my religious belief." Or something similar. Your agreement with President Obama's stated alignment to similar views, which (as I'm sure you know) turned out not to be his views[0] at all clarifies your view for me. Thank you. However, regardless of your personal views (especially as it appears to be part of your religious belief), it's inappropriate for California or the US as a whole to regulate civil marriage in this fashion. As Judge Walker found in Hollingsworth v. Perry, Proposition 8 was a violation of the due process and equal protection rights of those seeking to marry others of the same biological sex[0]. And I believe that reasoning, as well as the evidence and legal arguments presented[1], were more than sufficient to support Judge Walker's ruling. I strongly recommend you read those transcripts, as I did. The arguments and evidence presented are clear and convincing. But I'd go even further and say that regulating marriage in this way to satisfy a specific set of religious beliefs is unsupportable on First Amendment grounds (and applied to the several states via the 14th Amendment), as preferring one set of beliefs disadvantages the First Amendment rights of others who do not share those beliefs. The views you appear to hold and that President Obama claimed to hold are, if codified into law, in direct conflict with the Constitution. While you may believe that it's morally or ethically wrong for those of the same sex to marry, and to act upon that belief (by not marrying someone of the same sex), it is not permissible for the government to enshrine that belief into law. As such, it's not that I don't understand those views. Although whether I understand them or not is irrelevant. My issue is that the government is restricted from giving preference to those (or any other) religious views. Those religious views may be relevant to those who hold them, but they cannot be imposed on others who do not. It's a pretty simple idea. That's no straw-man. That's a core tenet of our system of government. >Still, I would never pull that kind of crap on you or any other HN antagonists. We need to work together against common enemies, if we can. Warmongers, crypto-backdoor advocates, surveillance capitalists, banksters, polluters, DRM-everything vendors -- in general, the monied interests and oligarchs who call too many shots today. You apparently misunderstand my point and my motivation. Just because I disagree with your views on this particular subject, doesn't necessarily mean that I must needs reject any other views you might have. Don't confuse me with someone who immediately assumes you are an unredeemably evil person because you don't share this particular view with me. I never said anything even approaching that. What's more, the issue is moot and has been for just over five years. You accuse me of "putting bad intentions or premises into your opponent's mouth, grandstanding against the resulting straw-man, and hiving off into disjoint factions that can be divided and conquered more easily," but that's clearly not the case. In fact, if you read through this thread you'll see that I strongly support your right not only to hold the views that you do, but to act upon those views, within the strictures of our legal system, as you see fit. Even more, you assume that I am unwilling to work with those who share some goals, but not others. As to the ones you mention: "Warmongers, crypto-backdoor advocates, surveillance capitalists, banksters, polluters, DRM-everything vendors -- in general, the monied interests and oligarchs who call too many shots today," I am also appalled and wish to change the trajectory of each and every one of those important issues. And I'm happy to work with those who support those goals and wish to address them in a principled way. As I said repeatedly in this thread, that if we wish to have a free society, we must tolerate even -- no, especially -- views with which we vehemently disagree. It's not about specific views or ideas, it's the principle that's important -- at least to me. That I disagree with your views on marriage equality (or at least what I understand of them based on your support for Proposition 8 and your further elucidation here) is based in exactly the same set of principles. As you should have noted, I loosed my venom just as strongly against those who seek to punish or silence others for views with which they disagree. And again I do so in support of exactly the same principles. I find it disappointing that you attack me for expressing my views while I'm defending your right to express yours. More's the pity. To put a fine point on that, please note that I did not denigrate you as a human or a citizen, nor did I call for you to be silenced or forced to betray your beliefs. Just the opposite in fact. All I did was rather pointedly disagree with (my understanding of) your views on marriage equality. Please try to separate your reaction from my statements. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/10/obama-frustrated-same-sex-marriage-david-axelrod-book https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/10/obama-frustr... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/supreme-court-prop-8-oral-arguments-transcript.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/sup...